Discussion:
New games for windows not being produced any more?
(too old to reply)
lindsay.cowell
2014-03-05 14:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?

Lindsay Cowell.
dark
2014-03-05 17:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lindsay.

People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).

That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.

I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.

it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
darren_g_harris
2014-03-05 17:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Cool what you beta testing for dark? That astro galaxies game?

-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
Date: 05:03:2014 5.04 pm

Hi Lindsay.

People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).

That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.

I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.

it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


---
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dark
2014-03-05 17:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Sadly not, I've not heard anything else about astro galaxy. I dropped the
devs another mail but they didn't get back to me which is a shame sinse only
navigating in the game is a problem, (rather like starbase orion and Star
traders, accept it just needs some labled images).

I'm not actually beata testing in the formal sense, it's rather someone
posted a beta on audiogames.net which I'm trying out, another attempt at a
roguelike with a standard if type interface ala Kerkerkruip, disconcertingly
called choose your own cave (even though it's nothing like a gamebook).

There is a topic in the new releases room about it on audiogames.net.

Indeed, lots of people are posting betas and games under development there
so, from the latest version of the braillemon audio pokemon game, to some
bgt arcade projects, to some japanese type stuff, if anyone wants to try
stuff out that is the place to go.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by darren_g_harris
Cool what you beta testing for dark? That astro galaxies game?
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
Date: 05:03:2014 5.04 pm
Hi Lindsay.
People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).
That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.
I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.
it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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dark
2014-03-05 17:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Sadly not, I've not heard anything else about astro galaxy. I dropped the
devs another mail but they didn't get back to me which is a shame sinse only
navigating in the game is a problem, (rather like starbase orion and Star
traders, accept it just needs some labled images).

I'm not actually beata testing in the formal sense, it's rather someone
posted a beta on audiogames.net which I'm trying out, another attempt at a
roguelike with a standard if type interface ala Kerkerkruip, disconcertingly
called choose your own cave (even though it's nothing like a gamebook).

There is a topic in the new releases room about it on audiogames.net.

Indeed, lots of people are posting betas and games under development there
so, from the latest version of the braillemon audio pokemon game, to some
bgt arcade projects, to some japanese type stuff, if anyone wants to try
stuff out that is the place to go.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by darren_g_harris
Cool what you beta testing for dark? That astro galaxies game?
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
Date: 05:03:2014 5.04 pm
Hi Lindsay.
People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).
That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.
I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.
it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-05 19:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lindsay,

Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.

On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.

Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.

In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.

Cheers!


On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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Michael Feir
2014-03-05 20:06:18 UTC
Permalink
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
Darren Harris
2014-03-05 20:54:00 UTC
Permalink
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Charles Rivard
2014-03-05 23:52:42 UTC
Permalink
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 01:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

That is certainly part of it. Outputting text to speech is simpler for
a developer to do when there is a standard method for doing it such as
with SAPI which should be installed on every machine from XP on up by
default. With screen readers there are so many and each has its own
method for handling text that it rather complicates the process unless
a person uses something like Universal Speech which is fine for free
games but I haven't looked into using it in commercial projects. In
any case it has always been simpler for me to use SAPI or to just use
prerecorded speech than to develop a wrapper for each and every screen
reader in existence.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
Charles Rivard
2014-03-06 05:00:14 UTC
Permalink
And all this time I thought that a rapper was a rap artist? Sheesh.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,
That is certainly part of it. Outputting text to speech is simpler for
a developer to do when there is a standard method for doing it such as
with SAPI which should be installed on every machine from XP on up by
default. With screen readers there are so many and each has its own
method for handling text that it rather complicates the process unless
a person uses something like Universal Speech which is fine for free
games but I haven't looked into using it in commercial projects. In
any case it has always been simpler for me to use SAPI or to just use
prerecorded speech than to develop a wrapper for each and every screen
reader in existence.
Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 16:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

Lol. Yeah, I suppose for most people a wrapper is a wrap artist.
However, in programming a wrapper is simply a piece of code that wraps
another piece of code or a program with a different interface in order
to make it easier for a developer to use the API etc in question.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
And all this time I thought that a rapper was a rap artist? Sheesh.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 16:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

Lol. Yeah, I suppose for most people a wrapper is a wrap artist.
However, in programming a wrapper is simply a piece of code that wraps
another piece of code or a program with a different interface in order
to make it easier for a developer to use the API etc in question.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
And all this time I thought that a rapper was a rap artist? Sheesh.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
dark
2014-03-06 11:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi. Sinse
dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api for
supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped me
playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.


The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned, however
these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers so just
writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 16:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a
quick and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are
plenty of voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the
voices are precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since
Eloquence is not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game
without the developer going through the Jaws API to use the screen
reader directly rather than accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that
reason I guess some people want Jaws support so they could use
Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which aren't available via
Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has
a fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and
voices from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably
don't want to turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral,
Nextup, etc given the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free
voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides
aren't available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us
who don't use Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using
Sapi because we do not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use
NVDA and own a handful of Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my
screen reader makes sense in my own case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi. Sinse
dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api for
supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped me
playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned, however
these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers so just
writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
Sky Mundell
2014-03-06 16:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Tho

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:20 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a quick
and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are plenty of
voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the voices are
precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since Eloquence is
not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game without the developer
going through the Jaws API to use the screen reader directly rather than
accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that reason I guess some people want Jaws
support so they could use Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which
aren't available via Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has a
fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and voices
from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably don't want to
turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral, Nextup, etc given
the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides aren't
available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us who don't use
Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using Sapi because we do
not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use NVDA and own a handful of
Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my screen reader makes sense in my own
case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi.
Sinse dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api
for supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped
me playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned,
however these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers
so just writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Sky Mundell
2014-03-06 16:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi, I do have to agree with you. A lot of people prefer to use the screen
reader of the choice because it gives them the opertunity to use whatever
voice they prefer. I have used SAPI 5 and I find it very easy to use in
games that use it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:41 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Tho

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:20 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a quick
and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are plenty of
voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the voices are
precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since Eloquence is
not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game without the developer
going through the Jaws API to use the screen reader directly rather than
accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that reason I guess some people want Jaws
support so they could use Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which
aren't available via Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has a
fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and voices
from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably don't want to
turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral, Nextup, etc given
the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides aren't
available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us who don't use
Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using Sapi because we do
not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use NVDA and own a handful of
Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my screen reader makes sense in my own
case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi.
Sinse dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api
for supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped
me playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned,
however these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers
so just writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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---
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Sky Mundell
2014-03-06 16:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi, I do have to agree with you. A lot of people prefer to use the screen
reader of the choice because it gives them the opertunity to use whatever
voice they prefer. I have used SAPI 5 and I find it very easy to use in
games that use it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:41 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Tho

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:20 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a quick
and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are plenty of
voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the voices are
precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since Eloquence is
not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game without the developer
going through the Jaws API to use the screen reader directly rather than
accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that reason I guess some people want Jaws
support so they could use Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which
aren't available via Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has a
fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and voices
from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably don't want to
turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral, Nextup, etc given
the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides aren't
available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us who don't use
Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using Sapi because we do
not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use NVDA and own a handful of
Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my screen reader makes sense in my own
case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi.
Sinse dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api
for supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped
me playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned,
however these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers
so just writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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---
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dark
2014-03-06 17:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.

All the best,

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 20:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, it is certainly true the cost of most Sapi voices have gone down
in price. Most are reasonably priced about $30 to $45 USD which is
well within a person's budget. At least most of the time.

However, I disagree about Microsoft Mike, Mary, and Sam. In my opinion
those are some of the absolutely worst voices on the market, and I am
personally glad Microsoft finally discontinued them. The voices on
Windows 8 are much more human sounding, and are almost as good as the
Vocalizer voices. Even if someone doesn't want to upgrade to Windows 8
there are much better voices available for XP than the default
Microsoft Sapi voices, and I can't really blame anyone for hating Sapi
if all they have is the garbage voices like Mike, Mary, and Sam. I
think if I were in that situation I'd take Eloquence over something
like Mike or Sam myself.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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dark
2014-03-07 07:39:16 UTC
Permalink
hi tom.

I'm Afraid I might not have said what I intended clearly enough.

I was not claiming that Mike, Mary and Sam were decent voices, or as good as
vocalizer, only that I personally do not rate eloquence any more than mike
or sam, and so find it a little difficult to sunderstand why a person (as
I've heard some do), would use jaws with eloquence in a game and prefer that
to ms mike.

Vocalizer I agree is superior to any of these, indeed I've got the realspeak
solo Daniel voice for sapi myself. for that reason, and I'm glad microsoft
have upgraded their sapi voices on future windows, my comment was just
about eloquence, which I've heard lots of people use even now as their
default synth voice whis is odd sinse better alternatives are available even
in the same program.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, it is certainly true the cost of most Sapi voices have gone down
in price. Most are reasonably priced about $30 to $45 USD which is
well within a person's budget. At least most of the time.
However, I disagree about Microsoft Mike, Mary, and Sam. In my opinion
those are some of the absolutely worst voices on the market, and I am
personally glad Microsoft finally discontinued them. The voices on
Windows 8 are much more human sounding, and are almost as good as the
Vocalizer voices. Even if someone doesn't want to upgrade to Windows 8
there are much better voices available for XP than the default
Microsoft Sapi voices, and I can't really blame anyone for hating Sapi
if all they have is the garbage voices like Mike, Mary, and Sam. I
think if I were in that situation I'd take Eloquence over something
like Mike or Sam myself.
Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-07 18:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that issue up for me.

When it comes to TTS voices one thing I have noticed there is a pretty
big difference in preference, and a lot of it comes down to what a
person is use to. Eloquence came with Jaws and even Window-Eyes for
many versions now, and for various reasons people have grown use to
it, perhaps even like it, and it is for that reason they want to use
it in a game. It is generally faster, more responsive than most TTS
voices, and while robotic it does a decent job of speaking text
clearly and precisely.

On the flip side while the Vocalizer voices are more human sounding
they come with their fair share of hang-ups such as are less
responsive and don't always pronounce words correctly. Nothing is
quite as frustrating to read a document instead of saying m s or
Microsoft to have Vocalizer say manuscript instead.
Point being,while the Vocalizer voices are superior in many ways
Eloquence is still better in other ways. It is for those other reasons
that keep gamers interested in using it as an alternative to speech
synthe to SApi.

Cheers!
Post by dark
hi tom.
I'm Afraid I might not have said what I intended clearly enough.
I was not claiming that Mike, Mary and Sam were decent voices, or as good as
vocalizer, only that I personally do not rate eloquence any more than mike
or sam, and so find it a little difficult to sunderstand why a person (as
I've heard some do), would use jaws with eloquence in a game and prefer that
to ms mike.
Vocalizer I agree is superior to any of these, indeed I've got the realspeak
solo Daniel voice for sapi myself. for that reason, and I'm glad microsoft
have upgraded their sapi voices on future windows, my comment was just
about eloquence, which I've heard lots of people use even now as their
default synth voice whis is odd sinse better alternatives are available even
in the same program.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
dark
2014-03-07 19:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both are
reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although annoyingly
it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've switched to
vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of Supernova I've not
noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this is due to sn or
vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well agree vocalizers
abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when playing rpgs and muds
like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of
100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.

I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I play
fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like pronouncing the
mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd
dough I still do miss Orphius.

For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar I
use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same reason,
however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets vowels wrong
and ends words in a very unnatural way.

I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
Josh
2014-03-07 20:19:18 UTC
Permalink
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.

using windows7 laptop
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse
both are reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although
annoyingly it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've
switched to vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of
Supernova I've not noticed any responsivess issues, though whether
this is due to sn or vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however
fully well agree vocalizers abreviations are a pain in the kneck,
especially when playing rpgs and muds like alteraeon, being told I
have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of 100 Hp and 50 staminer
is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to
pronounce various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names
like theoden correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more
used to it as I play fantasy games, but occasionally when it says
something like pronouncing the mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in
Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt
at British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when
I'm writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the
gramar I use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for
the same reason, however Eloquence british english is rather
horrible, it gets vowels wrong and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 01:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

I disagree with that statement. I use to own and use Keynote Gold in
the 90's and Espeak doesn't sound anything like Keynote Gold in my
opinion. Yes, they are both robotic, but Espeak doesn't have the same
tone and inflection as Keynote Gold.
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-08 02:36:52 UTC
Permalink
No kidding. Espeak is worse as far asI'm concerned.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Ward
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 6:55 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Josh,

I disagree with that statement. I use to own and use Keynote Gold in
the 90's and Espeak doesn't sound anything like Keynote Gold in my
opinion. Yes, they are both robotic, but Espeak doesn't have the same
tone and inflection as Keynote Gold.
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 12:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bryan,

Oh, I don't know about that. I have gotten use to Espeak and it isn't
that bad once you get use to it. Of course, it is the default voice on
Linux and I have used it with NVDA a lot so I probably have just grown
use to the sound of Espeak. Either way, the voice of Keynote use to
get under my skin when I had it, and I don't have that problem with
Espeak.

Cheers!
Post by Bryan Peterson
No kidding. Espeak is worse as far asI'm concerned.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-08 02:36:52 UTC
Permalink
No kidding. Espeak is worse as far asI'm concerned.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Ward
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 6:55 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Josh,

I disagree with that statement. I use to own and use Keynote Gold in
the 90's and Espeak doesn't sound anything like Keynote Gold in my
opinion. Yes, they are both robotic, but Espeak doesn't have the same
tone and inflection as Keynote Gold.
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
---
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dark
2014-03-08 07:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Well it depends upon which orphius voice. the default synthetic ones are
pretty electronic (although I prefer their british accent to eloquence),
however the human voices alan and carrol are considderably different and
sound much better.

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both
are reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although
annoyingly it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've
switched to vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of
Supernova I've not noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this
is due to sn or vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well
agree vocalizers abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when
playing rpgs and muds like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power
and 60 street instead of 100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I
play fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like
pronouncing the mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha,
or Frodo as frodd dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar
I use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same
reason, however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets
vowels wrong and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 12:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

I don't think I have ever heard Alan or Carol. The only Orpheus voices
I have ever heard were pretty robotic and sounded like Robbie the
Robot on drugs.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Well it depends upon which orphius voice. the default synthetic ones are
pretty electronic (although I prefer their british accent to eloquence),
however the human voices alan and carrol are considderably different and
sound much better.
All the best,
Dark.
dark
2014-03-08 14:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi tom.

The orphius voice you heard was likely synthetic dave, which is indeed very
robotic. However, in Supernova version 6 dolphin started shipping the human
voices as default, and if you hear my podcast about the fighting fatnasy
project game that I made in 2007, it has that voice. Unfortunately for some
crazy reason dolphin stopped shippping in version 10, though the human
voices are still available for download from dolphin's site plus I have them
backed up on my harddrive and if the orphius synth itself hadn't crashed on
me I'd likely still be using them, sinse I did always find them the best
compromise between speed and clarity, albeit vocalizer does seem to have
sorted the responsivity issue at least.

Beware the grue!

dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-09 04:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

I don't think I have ever heard your Fighting Fantasy podcast, but I'd
like to hear it if you have a link to it. Not just for the voices, but
I'd be interested in hearing it for its own sake.


As for the Vocalizer voices there are actually three different
versions on the market. Apparently Nuance has a fast and responsive
version which uses less memory but isn't quite as high a quality as
say their Plus or Premium versions. The higher the quality the voice
the less responsive and more laggy it is, but the higher the quality
of the voice. Most screen readers like Jaws and perhaps Supernova are
using the Expressive versions which sound okay, not as good as the
premium voices, but are more responsive and better suited for day to
day use with a screen reader where their higher quality versions is
better for something like Text Aloud which only reads books and other
documents.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi tom.
The orphius voice you heard was likely synthetic dave, which is indeed very
robotic. However, in Supernova version 6 dolphin started shipping the human
voices as default, and if you hear my podcast about the fighting fatnasy
project game that I made in 2007, it has that voice. Unfortunately for some
crazy reason dolphin stopped shippping in version 10, though the human
voices are still available for download from dolphin's site plus I have them
backed up on my harddrive and if the orphius synth itself hadn't crashed on
me I'd likely still be using them, sinse I did always find them the best
compromise between speed and clarity, albeit vocalizer does seem to have
sorted the responsivity issue at least.
Beware the grue!
dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 01:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

I disagree with that statement. I use to own and use Keynote Gold in
the 90's and Espeak doesn't sound anything like Keynote Gold in my
opinion. Yes, they are both robotic, but Espeak doesn't have the same
tone and inflection as Keynote Gold.
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
dark
2014-03-08 07:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Well it depends upon which orphius voice. the default synthetic ones are
pretty electronic (although I prefer their british accent to eloquence),
however the human voices alan and carrol are considderably different and
sound much better.

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Josh
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.
using windows7 laptop
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both
are reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although
annoyingly it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've
switched to vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of
Supernova I've not noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this
is due to sn or vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well
agree vocalizers abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when
playing rpgs and muds like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power
and 60 street instead of 100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I
play fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like
pronouncing the mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha,
or Frodo as frodd dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar
I use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same
reason, however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets
vowels wrong and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 02:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yeah, I don't really use Eloquence's British voices much, me being an
American, so I am perfectly fine with Reed. However, I can and do see
your issue with Eloquence because the British English voices sound off
to me as well, and I am use to listening to British voices like
Realspeak Daniel or Ivona Amy and Bryan. So I'm not all that surprised
you don't like Eloquence's British voices.

Of course, as we've said before this is all pretty much personal
preference. I remember when I was using realspeak Caren in a couple of
my games and a few people complained about the voice because it was
Australian English. I can sort of see their point as some of those
accents do sound strange if all a person is use to is American
English, but I personally liked the voice.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both are
reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although annoyingly
it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've switched to
vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of Supernova I've not
noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this is due to sn or
vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well agree vocalizers
abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when playing rpgs and muds
like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of
100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I play
fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like pronouncing the
mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd
dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar I
use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same reason,
however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets vowels wrong
and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
---
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dark
2014-03-08 07:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

Personally I didn't mind the australian voice in the game, albeit was a
little surprising given that I don't believe Angela carter was planned to be
an ozy.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 12:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Lol. No, Angela Carter wasn't suppose to be Australian, but I didn't
see the voice of the game as being representative of her voice or
nationality. I just considered the voice of the game as the TTS
output. Nothing more and nothing less. I could have used Realspeak Tom
as the TTS output and just because the narrator was male didn't mean
the game character had to be male too.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
Personally I didn't mind the australian voice in the game, albeit was a
little surprising given that I don't believe Angela carter was planned to be
an ozy.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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dark
2014-03-08 14:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

I do see your point on tts voices in menus just being the audio equivolent
of text printed to the screen in a graphical game, rather than the sort of
sound you'd get in a cut scene, but I actually sort of liked the idea of
Angela Carter as an Ozy.

The fifth doctor had an asistant called Tegan Gevanka, who was a waitress on
an airliner that got lost in a wormhole. She was famous for being very loud
and irritated and not prone to screaming fits, indeed on at least one
occasion she gave an alien the one two with a steel bar, which is quite
something for doctor who (particularly with the fifth doctor who was the
most actively pcifist off all his encarnations).

That's likely why I sort of associate australians with being hard cases
which would be sort of fitting for a gun toting archaeologist, albeit on the
occasions I've met australians that isn't exactly true.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Lol. No, Angela Carter wasn't suppose to be Australian, but I didn't
see the voice of the game as being representative of her voice or
nationality. I just considered the voice of the game as the TTS
output. Nothing more and nothing less. I could have used Realspeak Tom
as the TTS output and just because the narrator was male didn't mean
the game character had to be male too.
Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
Personally I didn't mind the australian voice in the game, albeit was a
little surprising given that I don't believe Angela carter was planned to be
an ozy.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-09 04:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Lol. I didn't quite see it that way at the time, but now that you
mention it I do like the idea of a badass Australian female with lots
of attitude. For one thing it would be different from the usual
American or English treasure hunter we see in movies and games, and I
do just like the accent. It is certainly worthwhile considering at
some point.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do see your point on tts voices in menus just being the audio equivolent
of text printed to the screen in a graphical game, rather than the sort of
sound you'd get in a cut scene, but I actually sort of liked the idea of
Angela Carter as an Ozy.
The fifth doctor had an asistant called Tegan Gevanka, who was a waitress on
an airliner that got lost in a wormhole. She was famous for being very loud
and irritated and not prone to screaming fits, indeed on at least one
occasion she gave an alien the one two with a steel bar, which is quite
something for doctor who (particularly with the fifth doctor who was the
most actively pcifist off all his encarnations).
That's likely why I sort of associate australians with being hard cases
which would be sort of fitting for a gun toting archaeologist, albeit on the
occasions I've met australians that isn't exactly true.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
Josh
2014-03-07 20:19:18 UTC
Permalink
I think espeak sounds a bit like orpheus or keynote gold.

using windows7 laptop
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse
both are reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although
annoyingly it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've
switched to vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of
Supernova I've not noticed any responsivess issues, though whether
this is due to sn or vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however
fully well agree vocalizers abreviations are a pain in the kneck,
especially when playing rpgs and muds like alteraeon, being told I
have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of 100 Hp and 50 staminer
is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to
pronounce various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names
like theoden correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more
used to it as I play fantasy games, but occasionally when it says
something like pronouncing the mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in
Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt
at British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when
I'm writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the
gramar I use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for
the same reason, however Eloquence british english is rather
horrible, it gets vowels wrong and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
---
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list,
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-08 02:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yeah, I don't really use Eloquence's British voices much, me being an
American, so I am perfectly fine with Reed. However, I can and do see
your issue with Eloquence because the British English voices sound off
to me as well, and I am use to listening to British voices like
Realspeak Daniel or Ivona Amy and Bryan. So I'm not all that surprised
you don't like Eloquence's British voices.

Of course, as we've said before this is all pretty much personal
preference. I remember when I was using realspeak Caren in a couple of
my games and a few people complained about the voice because it was
Australian English. I can sort of see their point as some of those
accents do sound strange if all a person is use to is American
English, but I personally liked the voice.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both are
reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although annoyingly
it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've switched to
vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of Supernova I've not
noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this is due to sn or
vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well agree vocalizers
abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when playing rpgs and muds
like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of
100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.
I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I play
fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like pronouncing the
mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd
dough I still do miss Orphius.
For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar I
use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same reason,
however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets vowels wrong
and ends words in a very unnatural way.
I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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dark
2014-03-07 19:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

I do understand both the responsiveness and dictionary points sinse both are
reasons I used to like the human voices from orphius although annoyingly
it's had a nasty habbit of crashing on me recently so I've switched to
vocalizer full time. At least with the later versions of Supernova I've not
noticed any responsivess issues, though whether this is due to sn or
vocalizer or both I'm not sure. I do however fully well agree vocalizers
abreviations are a pain in the kneck, especially when playing rpgs and muds
like alteraeon, being told I have 100 horse power and 60 street instead of
100 Hp and 50 staminer is quite irritating.

I also used to like Orphius for the fact that it's ability to pronounce
various fantasy names was pretty good, it even got names like theoden
correct. Vocalizer isn't bad and I'm getting a bit more used to it as I play
fantasy games, but occasionally when it says something like pronouncing the
mad stuard of Minas Tirith's name in Lotr as den netha, or Frodo as frodd
dough I still do miss Orphius.

For me, one major turn off of Eloquence is the sound of it's attempt at
British English. I do prefer a British synth sinse obviously when I'm
writing anything of my own I want it to sound reasonable with the gramar I
use, just as I suspect you would prefer an American one for the same reason,
however Eloquence british english is rather horrible, it gets vowels wrong
and ends words in a very unnatural way.

I agree all of this is pretty much down to personal preference.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-07 18:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that issue up for me.

When it comes to TTS voices one thing I have noticed there is a pretty
big difference in preference, and a lot of it comes down to what a
person is use to. Eloquence came with Jaws and even Window-Eyes for
many versions now, and for various reasons people have grown use to
it, perhaps even like it, and it is for that reason they want to use
it in a game. It is generally faster, more responsive than most TTS
voices, and while robotic it does a decent job of speaking text
clearly and precisely.

On the flip side while the Vocalizer voices are more human sounding
they come with their fair share of hang-ups such as are less
responsive and don't always pronounce words correctly. Nothing is
quite as frustrating to read a document instead of saying m s or
Microsoft to have Vocalizer say manuscript instead.
Point being,while the Vocalizer voices are superior in many ways
Eloquence is still better in other ways. It is for those other reasons
that keep gamers interested in using it as an alternative to speech
synthe to SApi.

Cheers!
Post by dark
hi tom.
I'm Afraid I might not have said what I intended clearly enough.
I was not claiming that Mike, Mary and Sam were decent voices, or as good as
vocalizer, only that I personally do not rate eloquence any more than mike
or sam, and so find it a little difficult to sunderstand why a person (as
I've heard some do), would use jaws with eloquence in a game and prefer that
to ms mike.
Vocalizer I agree is superior to any of these, indeed I've got the realspeak
solo Daniel voice for sapi myself. for that reason, and I'm glad microsoft
have upgraded their sapi voices on future windows, my comment was just
about eloquence, which I've heard lots of people use even now as their
default synth voice whis is odd sinse better alternatives are available even
in the same program.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
dark
2014-03-07 07:39:16 UTC
Permalink
hi tom.

I'm Afraid I might not have said what I intended clearly enough.

I was not claiming that Mike, Mary and Sam were decent voices, or as good as
vocalizer, only that I personally do not rate eloquence any more than mike
or sam, and so find it a little difficult to sunderstand why a person (as
I've heard some do), would use jaws with eloquence in a game and prefer that
to ms mike.

Vocalizer I agree is superior to any of these, indeed I've got the realspeak
solo Daniel voice for sapi myself. for that reason, and I'm glad microsoft
have upgraded their sapi voices on future windows, my comment was just
about eloquence, which I've heard lots of people use even now as their
default synth voice whis is odd sinse better alternatives are available even
in the same program.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, it is certainly true the cost of most Sapi voices have gone down
in price. Most are reasonably priced about $30 to $45 USD which is
well within a person's budget. At least most of the time.
However, I disagree about Microsoft Mike, Mary, and Sam. In my opinion
those are some of the absolutely worst voices on the market, and I am
personally glad Microsoft finally discontinued them. The voices on
Windows 8 are much more human sounding, and are almost as good as the
Vocalizer voices. Even if someone doesn't want to upgrade to Windows 8
there are much better voices available for XP than the default
Microsoft Sapi voices, and I can't really blame anyone for hating Sapi
if all they have is the garbage voices like Mike, Mary, and Sam. I
think if I were in that situation I'd take Eloquence over something
like Mike or Sam myself.
Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 20:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, it is certainly true the cost of most Sapi voices have gone down
in price. Most are reasonably priced about $30 to $45 USD which is
well within a person's budget. At least most of the time.

However, I disagree about Microsoft Mike, Mary, and Sam. In my opinion
those are some of the absolutely worst voices on the market, and I am
personally glad Microsoft finally discontinued them. The voices on
Windows 8 are much more human sounding, and are almost as good as the
Vocalizer voices. Even if someone doesn't want to upgrade to Windows 8
there are much better voices available for XP than the default
Microsoft Sapi voices, and I can't really blame anyone for hating Sapi
if all they have is the garbage voices like Mike, Mary, and Sam. I
think if I were in that situation I'd take Eloquence over something
like Mike or Sam myself.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Sky Mundell
2014-03-06 16:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Tho

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:20 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a quick
and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are plenty of
voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the voices are
precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since Eloquence is
not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game without the developer
going through the Jaws API to use the screen reader directly rather than
accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that reason I guess some people want Jaws
support so they could use Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which
aren't available via Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has a
fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and voices
from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably don't want to
turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral, Nextup, etc given
the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides aren't
available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us who don't use
Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using Sapi because we do
not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use NVDA and own a handful of
Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my screen reader makes sense in my own
case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi.
Sinse dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api
for supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped
me playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned,
however these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers
so just writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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dark
2014-03-06 17:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

that is likely true regarding people's feelings, however equaly that
arguement isn't really a tenable one anymore sinse the days when a high
quality voice would cost you 200 quid or so are gone so your not really
talking sky rocket prices. Plus, on a personal level I'd actually rather
have one of the default ms voices such as mike than eloquence anyway, though
this is likely me.

All the best,

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 16:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yeah, I personally don't get what is wrong with Sapi either. It is a
quick and easy API, works fairly well for what it does, and there are
plenty of voices available for it. However, as a guess I suppose the
voices are precisely the issue people have with it.

A lot of Jaws users, for example, are use to Eloquence. Since
Eloquence is not a Sapi voice they can't just use that with a game
without the developer going through the Jaws API to use the screen
reader directly rather than accessing Eloquence via Sapi. For that
reason I guess some people want Jaws support so they could use
Eloquence and the various Vocalizer voices which aren't available via
Sapi.

Of course, there is probably a cost issue here as well. Anyone who has
a fairly up to date version of Jaws has a number of TTS engines and
voices from Eloquence and several Vocalizer voices. They probably
don't want to turn around and buy more voices from Cereproc, Cepstral,
Nextup, etc given the fact that Jaws already offers them a lot of free
voices.

In short, as a guess I think the reason many users want screen reader
support is because of the voices etc their screen reader provides
aren't available for Sapi or are available at extra cost. Some of us
who don't use Jaws, such as myself, aren't missing anything by using
Sapi because we do not have various free TTS voices to miss. I use
NVDA and own a handful of Sapi voices so using Sapi rather than my
screen reader makes sense in my own case.

Cheers!
Post by dark
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi. Sinse
dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api for
supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped me
playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.
The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned, however
these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers so just
writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
Charles Rivard
2014-03-06 05:00:14 UTC
Permalink
And all this time I thought that a rapper was a rap artist? Sheesh.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,
That is certainly part of it. Outputting text to speech is simpler for
a developer to do when there is a standard method for doing it such as
with SAPI which should be installed on every machine from XP on up by
default. With screen readers there are so many and each has its own
method for handling text that it rather complicates the process unless
a person uses something like Universal Speech which is fine for free
games but I haven't looked into using it in commercial projects. In
any case it has always been simpler for me to use SAPI or to just use
prerecorded speech than to develop a wrapper for each and every screen
reader in existence.
Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2014-03-06 11:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Personally I agree with Josh, I don't see what is wrong with sapi. Sinse
dolphin have (up to last year), been so precious about the api for
supernova, very few games have run with it, but that's not stopped me
playing Vipmud, alteraeon with Mush Z, Lone wolf etc.


The exception of course is making textual games such as interactive fiction
accessible, as happened with the choice of cave game I mentioned, however
these days all the screen readers have working virtual cursers so just
writing the text to the screen without clutter is fine.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:20:00 UTC
Permalink
I agree charles.
And its actually not that hard to multidevelop for screenreaders now,
with the screen reader api its easy enough if you know how.
Out of all the readers, nvda is the one I'd go for being opensource
and non restrictive.
And to be honest outputting text on screen is fine to.
there are console apps to.
I don't know where you got that idea from darrin but its not as bad
as that at least not for a couple years or so.
It costs a lot to get into development of an i device and the device
costs a lot.
Android is another thing but still it has its own requirements.
the pc is still the market for now.
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio
games either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're
finished, you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Harris"
<darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Actually, there are more than one library out there for Windows for
accessing multiple screen readers. There is Accessible Output for
Python, there is Universal Speech which is available for various
languages, and now there is Tolk. So I agree supporting multiple
screen readers isn't all that difficult these days assuming you are
willing to abide by the license agreement for the screen reader API
you are using.

However, regarding iDevices it is very expensive to develop for. At
least if the end user is a Windows user. He or she must purchase a Mac
running OSX, must buy the proper development toolkits for iOS, and
probably have an iPad or iPhone available for testing. Therefore I
don't really see a lot of Windows developers just leaving the Windows
platform to go for iDevices any time soon because they have to have
different hardware, software, and skills to develop for an iDevice.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
I agree charles.
And its actually not that hard to multidevelop for screenreaders now,
with the screen reader api its easy enough if you know how.
Out of all the readers, nvda is the one I'd go for being opensource
and non restrictive.
And to be honest outputting text on screen is fine to.
there are console apps to.
I don't know where you got that idea from darrin but its not as bad
as that at least not for a couple years or so.
It costs a lot to get into development of an i device and the device
costs a lot.
Android is another thing but still it has its own requirements.
the pc is still the market for now.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Actually, there are more than one library out there for Windows for
accessing multiple screen readers. There is Accessible Output for
Python, there is Universal Speech which is available for various
languages, and now there is Tolk. So I agree supporting multiple
screen readers isn't all that difficult these days assuming you are
willing to abide by the license agreement for the screen reader API
you are using.

However, regarding iDevices it is very expensive to develop for. At
least if the end user is a Windows user. He or she must purchase a Mac
running OSX, must buy the proper development toolkits for iOS, and
probably have an iPad or iPhone available for testing. Therefore I
don't really see a lot of Windows developers just leaving the Windows
platform to go for iDevices any time soon because they have to have
different hardware, software, and skills to develop for an iDevice.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
I agree charles.
And its actually not that hard to multidevelop for screenreaders now,
with the screen reader api its easy enough if you know how.
Out of all the readers, nvda is the one I'd go for being opensource
and non restrictive.
And to be honest outputting text on screen is fine to.
there are console apps to.
I don't know where you got that idea from darrin but its not as bad
as that at least not for a couple years or so.
It costs a lot to get into development of an i device and the device
costs a lot.
Android is another thing but still it has its own requirements.
the pc is still the market for now.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 01:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

That is certainly part of it. Outputting text to speech is simpler for
a developer to do when there is a standard method for doing it such as
with SAPI which should be installed on every machine from XP on up by
default. With screen readers there are so many and each has its own
method for handling text that it rather complicates the process unless
a person uses something like Universal Speech which is fine for free
games but I haven't looked into using it in commercial projects. In
any case it has always been simpler for me to use SAPI or to just use
prerecorded speech than to develop a wrapper for each and every screen
reader in existence.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:20:00 UTC
Permalink
I agree charles.
And its actually not that hard to multidevelop for screenreaders now,
with the screen reader api its easy enough if you know how.
Out of all the readers, nvda is the one I'd go for being opensource
and non restrictive.
And to be honest outputting text on screen is fine to.
there are console apps to.
I don't know where you got that idea from darrin but its not as bad
as that at least not for a couple years or so.
It costs a lot to get into development of an i device and the device
costs a lot.
Android is another thing but still it has its own requirements.
the pc is still the market for now.
Post by Charles Rivard
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio
games either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're
finished, you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren Harris"
<darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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Josh
2014-03-06 01:25:45 UTC
Permalink
they don't have to make it work with third party screen readers. they
could always just make it for sapi5.


using windows7 laptop
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:09:22 UTC
Permalink
darrin, to be honest devs can just use sapi.
Compaired to other things windows is probably easy to develop because
you don't have restrictions on what you do, I guess the smart phone
will take over but I have not seen that many blind devs actually make
games for the smart phone market and those that are out really
although good for smart phones are probably crap compaired to their
windows varients.
I am still a firm believer at least for the short term maybe longer
that we will have windows.
The big jump is when vb6 dies then we may see more of the games drop
off and who knows.
However its not all over till the fat lady sings and even if the
core devs all died we would still have some of an indie industry
active so its not an issue really.
shaun.
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Actually, compared to other operating systems like OSX Windows is more
difficult to develop for not easier. The reason has to do with too
many different configurations, versions, and too many libraries and
languages that makes Windows difficult to support.

For example, right now there are 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows
actively being sold on the market. Well, if I write a program and
compile it for a 64-bit version of Windows it will not run on 32-bit
versions of Windows. Therefore I have to design my game to be 32-bit
in order to support 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows, and by
doing so will have to forgo the advantages of a 64-bit OS and
processor.

If I choose something like Microsoft's .NET Framework I first have to
determine which version is present on the machine. As I can't rely on
everyone to be running the latest and greatest that could be cause for
incompatibility right there. Not to mention all the third-party
dependencies I may use with my game such as SlimDX, SDL .NET, OpenAL
.NET, whatever won't come with the system meaning I still have to make
sure they are installed and setup correctly in order to run my game.

Those are just two of several things that makes supporting Windows
something of a nightmare to develop for and support. With Apple's OSX
there is only one target environment, 64-bit, and so the issue of
32-bit compatibility is a non-issue. Although, there is a free .NET
Framework called Mono available for OSX most developers choose to use
Object-C and the native libraries meaning they don't have to worry too
much about which .NET Framework is installed or if x number of
dependencies are installed, because most of what a game developer
needs should already be available on OSX from the get-go.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
darrin, to be honest devs can just use sapi.
Compaired to other things windows is probably easy to develop because
you don't have restrictions on what you do, I guess the smart phone
will take over but I have not seen that many blind devs actually make
games for the smart phone market and those that are out really
although good for smart phones are probably crap compaired to their
windows varients.
I am still a firm believer at least for the short term maybe longer
that we will have windows.
The big jump is when vb6 dies then we may see more of the games drop
off and who knows.
However its not all over till the fat lady sings and even if the
core devs all died we would still have some of an indie industry
active so its not an issue really.
shaun.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Actually, compared to other operating systems like OSX Windows is more
difficult to develop for not easier. The reason has to do with too
many different configurations, versions, and too many libraries and
languages that makes Windows difficult to support.

For example, right now there are 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows
actively being sold on the market. Well, if I write a program and
compile it for a 64-bit version of Windows it will not run on 32-bit
versions of Windows. Therefore I have to design my game to be 32-bit
in order to support 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows, and by
doing so will have to forgo the advantages of a 64-bit OS and
processor.

If I choose something like Microsoft's .NET Framework I first have to
determine which version is present on the machine. As I can't rely on
everyone to be running the latest and greatest that could be cause for
incompatibility right there. Not to mention all the third-party
dependencies I may use with my game such as SlimDX, SDL .NET, OpenAL
.NET, whatever won't come with the system meaning I still have to make
sure they are installed and setup correctly in order to run my game.

Those are just two of several things that makes supporting Windows
something of a nightmare to develop for and support. With Apple's OSX
there is only one target environment, 64-bit, and so the issue of
32-bit compatibility is a non-issue. Although, there is a free .NET
Framework called Mono available for OSX most developers choose to use
Object-C and the native libraries meaning they don't have to worry too
much about which .NET Framework is installed or if x number of
dependencies are installed, because most of what a game developer
needs should already be available on OSX from the get-go.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
darrin, to be honest devs can just use sapi.
Compaired to other things windows is probably easy to develop because
you don't have restrictions on what you do, I guess the smart phone
will take over but I have not seen that many blind devs actually make
games for the smart phone market and those that are out really
although good for smart phones are probably crap compaired to their
windows varients.
I am still a firm believer at least for the short term maybe longer
that we will have windows.
The big jump is when vb6 dies then we may see more of the games drop
off and who knows.
However its not all over till the fat lady sings and even if the
core devs all died we would still have some of an indie industry
active so its not an issue really.
shaun.
Charles Rivard
2014-03-05 23:52:42 UTC
Permalink
The fact that there are so many screen readers is why most audio games
either use sapi or have their own voices, isn't it?

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Josh
2014-03-06 01:25:45 UTC
Permalink
they don't have to make it work with third party screen readers. they
could always just make it for sapi5.


using windows7 laptop
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:09:22 UTC
Permalink
darrin, to be honest devs can just use sapi.
Compaired to other things windows is probably easy to develop because
you don't have restrictions on what you do, I guess the smart phone
will take over but I have not seen that many blind devs actually make
games for the smart phone market and those that are out really
although good for smart phones are probably crap compaired to their
windows varients.
I am still a firm believer at least for the short term maybe longer
that we will have windows.
The big jump is when vb6 dies then we may see more of the games drop
off and who knows.
However its not all over till the fat lady sings and even if the
core devs all died we would still have some of an indie industry
active so its not an issue really.
shaun.
Post by Darren Harris
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir
Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--
Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html
A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html
Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
---
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Darren Harris
2014-03-05 20:54:00 UTC
Permalink
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca

---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:05:17 UTC
Permalink
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.


Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
Charles Rivard
2014-03-07 02:22:13 UTC
Permalink
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-07 02:26:02 UTC
Permalink
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-07 04:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
Post by Bryan Peterson
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-10 03:48:30 UTC
Permalink
No need to get bent out of shape. Tom's post I thought was quite reasonable
and accurate.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: shaun everiss
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:19 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
Post by Bryan Peterson
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
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Stephen
2014-03-10 07:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Slagging on a customer for finding too many crash bugs is also
another way to become very unpopular.
Post by Bryan Peterson
No need to get bent out of shape. Tom's post I thought was quite
reasonable and accurate.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: shaun everiss
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:19 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
Post by Bryan Peterson
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
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shaun everiss
2014-03-10 08:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Probably.
It does depend ofcause if those bugs are lagit or made up.
That may be hard to tell I guess.
Classic example were the people that bothered aprone only to be found
that their reports were fake and they wanted to disrupt things which
sadly they managed to.
Post by Stephen
Slagging on a customer for finding too many crash bugs is also
another way to become very unpopular.
Post by Bryan Peterson
No need to get bent out of shape. Tom's post I thought was quite
reasonable and accurate.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: shaun everiss
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:19 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
Post by Bryan Peterson
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.
---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-11 04:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stephen,

I imagine it would be extremely unpopular for a developer to slag a
customer or tester for finding too many crashes or bugs. Fortunately,
I can not think of too many developers who would do that, because the
number of bugs customers find the easier it is to gather information
about the bug, find out under what conditions it occurs, and hopefully
fix it.

Cheers!
Post by Stephen
Slagging on a customer for finding too many crash bugs is also
another way to become very unpopular.
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-11 04:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Not that I've ever heard of a dev slagging a customer for finding too many
bus.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Ward
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:08 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Stephen,

I imagine it would be extremely unpopular for a developer to slag a
customer or tester for finding too many crashes or bugs. Fortunately,
I can not think of too many developers who would do that, because the
number of bugs customers find the easier it is to gather information
about the bug, find out under what conditions it occurs, and hopefully
fix it.

Cheers!
Post by Stephen
Slagging on a customer for finding too many crash bugs is also
another way to become very unpopular.
---
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Stephen
2014-03-11 04:59:08 UTC
Permalink
it's what James north did to me.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Not that I've ever heard of a dev slagging a customer for finding
too many bus.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Ward
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:08 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Hi Stephen,
I imagine it would be extremely unpopular for a developer to slag a
customer or tester for finding too many crashes or bugs. Fortunately,
I can not think of too many developers who would do that, because the
number of bugs customers find the easier it is to gather information
about the bug, find out under what conditions it occurs, and hopefully
fix it.
Cheers!
Post by Stephen
Slagging on a customer for finding too many crash bugs is also
another way to become very unpopular.
---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-10 04:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Yes, it is true if a person is a game developer, a software developer
of any kind for that matter, he or she must willing to put up with a
certain amount of flack from the user base. That is all apart of the
territory of designing software. Someone will like what a developer
does and others will down right hate it. However, the important thing
to me as a developer is how that flack or backlash is worded.

I personally can take constructive criticism. If someone doesn't like
something I do by all means tell me, but also suggest how it might be
made better. What I can't take is negative comments like "your
software sucks," "its crap," "it is buggy," whatever without pointing
out how this or that might be fixed or improved upon.

The other issue is being realistic. I suppose because most users are
not developers themselves they sometimes have wildly unrealistic ideas
such as put in an extra mode, an extra setting, or add this or that
and be able to turn it on or off at will. That might sound reasonable
to an end user, but they aren't the one having to rewrite entire
sections of code to make that happen, nor do they have to deal with
the issues of debugging the code when something breaks because of
adding said setting or mode. The point being if a person is going to
make a suggestion try and think of one that does not involve an
unrealistic amount of work to be done to change it.

As far as pre-ordering goes I have mixed feelings about that. Sighted
developers often take orders six months in advanced because they have
a team of developers, working regular hours, on a pretty regular 9 to
5 schedule and can pretty much estimate down to the day something will
be released.

Audio game developers are at most one or two man operations. As a
result many of them have families, other jobs, and their programming
schedules are likely to be erratic at best. Even if they have nothing
else to do but write games anything from the common cold to a nasty
case of the flu can throw development off days or even weeks because
there is no safety net to rely upon. A single developer has no team to
take up the slack for his/her illness. So it makes it nearly
impossible to give an exact release date unless that person works
really hard to release on that date come what may. Even then it is
pretty iffy.

As for you not having bought any of the games from Alchemy Game
Studios, AKA James North, I'm not sure that is relevant to this
discussion. What happened to him is unfortunate, but the important
thing for us to do is to live and learn from that situation. I don't
really care to get into a debate about that affair again.

What I think we have learned as a community is that if we want to buy
games, take pre-orders, we need to be able to offer up stable demos or
builds for people to download and try while the game is in active
development. Rail Racer, for example, was developed at the same time
Che was taking pre-orders for the game, but it worked out just fine.
People who wanted the game could download all the betas, the patches,
etc and not have to worry about Che just taking their money for
pre-orders and not giving them a product in return. That worked out
fine, and if I were ever to do pre-orders that is the way I'd do it as
a developer.

There is also another option here. It is to release a preview or demo
of the game the way Philip Bennefall did for Parilous Hearts, take
pre-orders, and then give himself six months to complete the game.
Even if it wasn't fully completed in six months there would be at
least something available for the paid customers to play such as a
unlockable demo or a beta to play.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-10 04:07:31 UTC
Permalink
I didn't think Philip took preorders. I know he contemplated it but I
thought he'd resolved not to, especially given the uncertain status of that
particular project at the moment.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Ward
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 10:02 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Shaun,

Yes, it is true if a person is a game developer, a software developer
of any kind for that matter, he or she must willing to put up with a
certain amount of flack from the user base. That is all apart of the
territory of designing software. Someone will like what a developer
does and others will down right hate it. However, the important thing
to me as a developer is how that flack or backlash is worded.

I personally can take constructive criticism. If someone doesn't like
something I do by all means tell me, but also suggest how it might be
made better. What I can't take is negative comments like "your
software sucks," "its crap," "it is buggy," whatever without pointing
out how this or that might be fixed or improved upon.

The other issue is being realistic. I suppose because most users are
not developers themselves they sometimes have wildly unrealistic ideas
such as put in an extra mode, an extra setting, or add this or that
and be able to turn it on or off at will. That might sound reasonable
to an end user, but they aren't the one having to rewrite entire
sections of code to make that happen, nor do they have to deal with
the issues of debugging the code when something breaks because of
adding said setting or mode. The point being if a person is going to
make a suggestion try and think of one that does not involve an
unrealistic amount of work to be done to change it.

As far as pre-ordering goes I have mixed feelings about that. Sighted
developers often take orders six months in advanced because they have
a team of developers, working regular hours, on a pretty regular 9 to
5 schedule and can pretty much estimate down to the day something will
be released.

Audio game developers are at most one or two man operations. As a
result many of them have families, other jobs, and their programming
schedules are likely to be erratic at best. Even if they have nothing
else to do but write games anything from the common cold to a nasty
case of the flu can throw development off days or even weeks because
there is no safety net to rely upon. A single developer has no team to
take up the slack for his/her illness. So it makes it nearly
impossible to give an exact release date unless that person works
really hard to release on that date come what may. Even then it is
pretty iffy.

As for you not having bought any of the games from Alchemy Game
Studios, AKA James North, I'm not sure that is relevant to this
discussion. What happened to him is unfortunate, but the important
thing for us to do is to live and learn from that situation. I don't
really care to get into a debate about that affair again.

What I think we have learned as a community is that if we want to buy
games, take pre-orders, we need to be able to offer up stable demos or
builds for people to download and try while the game is in active
development. Rail Racer, for example, was developed at the same time
Che was taking pre-orders for the game, but it worked out just fine.
People who wanted the game could download all the betas, the patches,
etc and not have to worry about Che just taking their money for
pre-orders and not giving them a product in return. That worked out
fine, and if I were ever to do pre-orders that is the way I'd do it as
a developer.

There is also another option here. It is to release a preview or demo
of the game the way Philip Bennefall did for Parilous Hearts, take
pre-orders, and then give himself six months to complete the game.
Even if it wasn't fully completed in six months there would be at
least something available for the paid customers to play such as a
unlockable demo or a beta to play.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-10 05:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bryan,

No, Philip didn't take pre-orders for Perilous Hearts for precisely
the reasons you stated below, nor did I mean to imply he did. What I
meant to say was that a game developer can release a preview or demo,
to give perspective customers an idea of the game, and then optionally
take pre-orders based on that preview or demo. That way, it isn't like
the customer has to wonder how far along the game is, what it will be
like, and the demo version is something the developer can use to build
upon which means most of the really hard work will probably already be
done speeding up development time.

HTH
Post by Bryan Peterson
I didn't think Philip took preorders. I know he contemplated it but I
thought he'd resolved not to, especially given the uncertain status of that
particular project at the moment.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
shaun everiss
2014-03-10 05:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Yeah I agree with you there, someone over skype to one of the devs of
the group I work with or at least one of them went nuts at him
probably because he expected far to much.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Yes, it is true if a person is a game developer, a software developer
of any kind for that matter, he or she must willing to put up with a
certain amount of flack from the user base. That is all apart of the
territory of designing software. Someone will like what a developer
does and others will down right hate it. However, the important thing
to me as a developer is how that flack or backlash is worded.
I personally can take constructive criticism. If someone doesn't like
something I do by all means tell me, but also suggest how it might be
made better. What I can't take is negative comments like "your
software sucks," "its crap," "it is buggy," whatever without pointing
out how this or that might be fixed or improved upon.
The other issue is being realistic. I suppose because most users are
not developers themselves they sometimes have wildly unrealistic ideas
such as put in an extra mode, an extra setting, or add this or that
and be able to turn it on or off at will. That might sound reasonable
to an end user, but they aren't the one having to rewrite entire
sections of code to make that happen, nor do they have to deal with
the issues of debugging the code when something breaks because of
adding said setting or mode. The point being if a person is going to
make a suggestion try and think of one that does not involve an
unrealistic amount of work to be done to change it.
As far as pre-ordering goes I have mixed feelings about that. Sighted
developers often take orders six months in advanced because they have
a team of developers, working regular hours, on a pretty regular 9 to
5 schedule and can pretty much estimate down to the day something will
be released.
Audio game developers are at most one or two man operations. As a
result many of them have families, other jobs, and their programming
schedules are likely to be erratic at best. Even if they have nothing
else to do but write games anything from the common cold to a nasty
case of the flu can throw development off days or even weeks because
there is no safety net to rely upon. A single developer has no team to
take up the slack for his/her illness. So it makes it nearly
impossible to give an exact release date unless that person works
really hard to release on that date come what may. Even then it is
pretty iffy.
As for you not having bought any of the games from Alchemy Game
Studios, AKA James North, I'm not sure that is relevant to this
discussion. What happened to him is unfortunate, but the important
thing for us to do is to live and learn from that situation. I don't
really care to get into a debate about that affair again.
What I think we have learned as a community is that if we want to buy
games, take pre-orders, we need to be able to offer up stable demos or
builds for people to download and try while the game is in active
development. Rail Racer, for example, was developed at the same time
Che was taking pre-orders for the game, but it worked out just fine.
People who wanted the game could download all the betas, the patches,
etc and not have to worry about Che just taking their money for
pre-orders and not giving them a product in return. That worked out
fine, and if I were ever to do pre-orders that is the way I'd do it as
a developer.
There is also another option here. It is to release a preview or demo
of the game the way Philip Bennefall did for Parilous Hearts, take
pre-orders, and then give himself six months to complete the game.
Even if it wasn't fully completed in six months there would be at
least something available for the paid customers to play such as a
unlockable demo or a beta to play.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
Ok, Ok!
Enough is enough.
I wasn't going to chime in because of the reasons below.
However enough is enough.
No one has pushed this and yes I expect to get a backlash from here
but it needs to be said.
With my testing groups I have never sugar coated things.
If something is really bad I have said so.
To be honest while there are a few trolls on this list forums etc and
there will always be some, I strongly feel that when you are a
dev you need to expect and deal with a bunch of flack from your users.
If your stuff sucks I'd like to know so I can fix it.
I don't want people to say how good it is then I find later its total
crap and guess what I can't fix it because its to hard to do so.
I do agree we learned a lot from james north's mistake.
Preordering is fine but if you don't have something close to
finnishing then well.
The sighted preorder stuff munths in advance at least 6 months in
advance sometimes but still a few years is a bit much to wait.
Releasing something before you actually plan to release it without
allowing yourself headroom is not a good idea either.
And thats where the line must be.
Now I know some won't like me because of this but I strongly feel it
needs to be said.
I never brought james stuff because I honestly never got round to it.
I did support the general user base though my experience was not as
it is now I'll give you that.
Its my opinion that though maybe not meaning to supporters of some
devs decide to adjust the story to suit their god like devs.
I realise that all the james north stuff never happened on the lists
in fact I know a lot of it wasn't.
I just remember things went weird towards the end.
And before I am flamed off the list, I understand all sides.
I know about the stresses of actually designing stuff for games now
and also what the user expects and what its like.
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone
has their critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an
issue, now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say
there is to much bad comments is really not correct.
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
There I've said my piece, take it or leave it.
I can't force you to believe anything however in the short time I
have done design and testing I have always said how it is.
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and
what may be wrong.
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with
this sort of thing.
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form
however at the same time saying everything is fine because you are
to scared to actually say it isn't is not good.
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather
than saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
This is now I feel.
I will not argue with you on this, I have a good idea what some of
the people on here will think of my opinion and thats fine I don't
expect everyone to think as I do.
I only put this out as an alternate opinion only.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-10 06:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Well, not knowing anything about the conversation in question it is
hard to comment on it, but a lot of people have unrealistic
expectations. Especially, if it is their first time beta testing and
have little to no actual skills with software development. Some
people, for whatever reason, are just flat out jerks.

Whatever the reason for the criticism though the best solution is
communication. I am not just talking about the end users making the
criticisms against a product. It is a two way street and it is
certainly helpful if the developer can explain why some suggestion
won't work, is unrealistic, and takes time to address criticisms and
objections as best he or she can. Some developers though don't want to
do that so ignore the criticisms or fail to respond making the problem
that much worse by their silence.


Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
Yeah I agree with you there, someone over skype to one of the devs of
the group I work with or at least one of them went nuts at him
probably because he expected far to much.
Sabahattin Gucukoglu
2014-03-11 09:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by shaun everiss
I say this to be telling everyone my opinion.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, as the popular saying goes. What
follows are some of my own.
Post by shaun everiss
And I am trying to be as nice as I can.
I think this needs work. JMO. :)
Post by shaun everiss
To be honest I do not agree that its all bad.
True expect a bit of bad press everyone should expect some everyone has their
critics.
If you are getting to much then somewhere along the line you have an issue,
now I realise it may not be that obvious but still to say there is to much
bad comments is really not correct.
Regardless of whether this community suffers from groupthink or
fragmentation, this is not the conclusion I would make. We got more
useful, constructive feedback (both positive and negative) as well as
community contributions from our own lists, all while we were being flamed
to death here.
Post by shaun everiss
I realise you may need to waid through a bit but thats life.
I'd much rather cater to the users that were open to our design
philosophy. We already knew we weren't going to be favoured by some here,
but that was fine by us -- some of the choices we made were necessary
evils and we felt that we'd be getting a lot more by improving what we
had. Which we did, and I think it paid off. Others disagree, of course,
and that's fine too.

What is not fine is reading lots of email from people who were unwilling
to even _try_ to understand what was going on, but instead bashed the game
purely because it did not meet their immediate expectations. Far from
being as objective as possible, many simply complained that the game did
not work in exactly the way that they thought an audio game should.
Rather than try to accommodate the way that the game worked and understand
how it could be enjoyed -- and I recognise that this was quite difficult
-- they simply condemned it in its entirety.

To be honest, in some ways I fear that new up-and-coming developers will
find this forum before they develop their game, or will be so absolutely
discouraged by some of the behaviour here, that I hope that they finish
their games before they find this and similar venues to announce it in.
I completely understand that people have expectations based on past,
well-developed games, and we should certainly not put up with anything
that is less than perfect simply because it is trivial to exploit our
disability, but frankly there is an abundance of unreasonable, ungrateful
people in the community who simply will not acknowledge anything that they
do not immediately approve of, and instead generalise the developers and
their games as crap. This is a great shame, since it perpetuates a
stereotype about entitlement among the blind, as well as hurting our
chances of more mainstream advancement.
Post by shaun everiss
If its broke I have not been affraid to say it and where it is and what may
be wrong.
Absolutely, and it pays to do that. Devs want to know how things can be
better, and why. This is important. However, you must show some respect
for the developer; it isn't all about you. Ask for features, and do not
demand them. Likewise, a good dev will listen and not fail to acknowledge
the facts.
Post by shaun everiss
All I am saying as devs and users need to have some flexability with this
sort of thing.
Well, yes. Sadly it doesn't quite seem to work like that with some in
this community. :(
Post by shaun everiss
I agree, flaming for no reason but to get noticed is really bad form however
at the same time saying everything is fine because you are to scared to
actually say it isn't is not good.
Flaming to get attention is generally trolling of one kind or another and
can generally be spotted easily.

There is no need to be scared of the developer if all you intend to give
is constructive criticism. Even if the dev is in good standing, politely
pointing out any flaws is nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps you should
think twice before making controversial statements, though.
Post by shaun everiss
I strongly feel that more people need to say what is not good rather than
saying its all fine and expecting it to be fine when its not.
Well, depends on what you mean by "What is not good". If meaningless
attacks on the dev and games is what you mean, then no, I think we can
have less of that, thankyouverymuch. Otherwise, agreed.

Cheers,
Sabahattin
Bryan Peterson
2014-03-07 02:26:02 UTC
Permalink
I personally won't be holding my breath. LOL.



Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 7:22 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Charles Rivard
2014-03-07 02:22:13 UTC
Permalink
I don't think you could have said it any better, and I hope every list
member reads this and, more importantly, remembers it. It should have been
learned when James North left the scene, but the lesson still did not hit a
lot of homes.

---
Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.
Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2014-03-06 21:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

True enough. I think a lot of developers choose not to say anything
unless they have something of substance to say because a lot of us
have gotten sick of negative feedback from this and other accessible
gaming communities. The minute a developer announces he or she has
something in the works right away people want to know when it will be
released, will want constant updates on how it is going, and if a
developer fails to deliver a game by the expected date then they can
expect a lot of grief from the community wanting to know why it wasn't
released on such and such a day.


Point being if gamers are worried that developers are not developing
games, not making announcements, etc they really have themselves to
blame. there are developers like myself who are working on stuff when
they can, but we do not want to make any big announcements as we know
the general reaction from the community will ultimately come back to
bite us on the butt.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
Michael Feir
2014-03-05 20:06:18 UTC
Permalink
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:05:17 UTC
Permalink
There are a lot more things on the forum to.
I also know for a fact because I am on the teams that mtg, ks and
reality gaming have games out.
In fact reality gaming have just gone live with their snow boarding beta.
And this morning I did some sound work for at least 2 upcoming titles
and set up a submition file for sounds for other uses, so things are happening.
So in general things are moving its just no one tells anyone unless
there is something to release.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
lindsay.cowell
2014-03-05 21:14:12 UTC
Permalink
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices. I for one can not afford an IPhone.

Lindsay Cowell

-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm

I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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---
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Josh
2014-03-06 01:27:37 UTC
Permalink
if you can't afford an iphone. get an ipod touch. its an iphone without
the phone and they are only $223 on amazon. and they have nearly all the
same apps as iphone and voiceover as well. and a 5mp camera also.

using windows7 laptop
Post by lindsay.cowell
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices. I for one can not afford an IPhone.
Lindsay Cowell
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:22:03 UTC
Permalink
thats true and to be honest you are actually paying for the extra 3
or 4g capabilities sms and general phone.
with a touch, wifi, etc you can use skype easily enough you just
don't get mobile networking.
Post by Josh
if you can't afford an iphone. get an ipod touch. its an iphone
without the phone and they are only $223 on amazon. and they have
nearly all the same apps as iphone and voiceover as well. and a 5mp
camera also.
using windows7 laptop
Post by lindsay.cowell
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices.
I for one can not afford an IPhone.
Lindsay Cowell
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:22:03 UTC
Permalink
thats true and to be honest you are actually paying for the extra 3
or 4g capabilities sms and general phone.
with a touch, wifi, etc you can use skype easily enough you just
don't get mobile networking.
Post by Josh
if you can't afford an iphone. get an ipod touch. its an iphone
without the phone and they are only $223 on amazon. and they have
nearly all the same apps as iphone and voiceover as well. and a 5mp
camera also.
using windows7 laptop
Post by lindsay.cowell
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices.
I for one can not afford an IPhone.
Lindsay Cowell
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
Post by Thomas Ward
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Josh
2014-03-06 01:27:37 UTC
Permalink
if you can't afford an iphone. get an ipod touch. its an iphone without
the phone and they are only $223 on amazon. and they have nearly all the
same apps as iphone and voiceover as well. and a 5mp camera also.

using windows7 laptop
Post by lindsay.cowell
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices. I for one can not afford an IPhone.
Lindsay Cowell
-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm
I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
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Post by Thomas Ward
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Eleanor
2014-03-05 21:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Yes there are still games being produced for Windows. We just
released another game in the Inspector Cyndi in Newport series, Dead
Man's Chest. It is available on our website www.7128.com.

In addition, we also released a kid's game for Windows, Find It - for
kids 8 and up.

Eleanor Robinson
7-1287 Software
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Windows is still one of the major gaming systems the blind will use
for a while.
True there are a lot of mainstream accessable games from smart phones
apple and android devices and some consoles.
However most that can afford it are moving to win7 and up now.
Yes eventually we may loose some of the vb6 titles but right now we
are still going.
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
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john
2014-03-09 16:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Freedom scientific offers two different versions, the larger of which is premium. I'm not sure where those fall on the scale of quality, but figured I'd toss the info out there.

----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Ward <thomasward1978 at gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list <gamers at audyssey.org
Date sent: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 23:44:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

Hi Dark,

I don't think I have ever heard your Fighting Fantasy podcast, but I'd
like to hear it if you have a link to it. Not just for the voices, but
I'd be interested in hearing it for its own sake.


As for the Vocalizer voices there are actually three different
versions on the market. Apparently Nuance has a fast and responsive
version which uses less memory but isn't quite as high a quality as
say their Plus or Premium versions. The higher the quality the voice
the less responsive and more laggy it is, but the higher the quality
of the voice. Most screen readers like Jaws and perhaps Supernova are
using the Expressive versions which sound okay, not as good as the
premium voices, but are more responsive and better suited for day to
day use with a screen reader where their higher quality versions is
better for something like Text Aloud which only reads books and other
documents.

Cheers!



On 3/8/14, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
Hi tom.

The orphius voice you heard was likely synthetic dave, which is indeed very

robotic. However, in Supernova version 6 dolphin started shipping the human

voices as default, and if you hear my podcast about the fighting fatnasy
project game that I made in 2007, it has that voice. Unfortunately for some

crazy reason dolphin stopped shippping in version 10, though the human
voices are still available for download from dolphin's site plus I have them

backed up on my harddrive and if the orphius synth itself hadn't crashed on

me I'd likely still be using them, sinse I did always find them the best
compromise between speed and clarity, albeit vocalizer does seem to have
sorted the responsivity issue at least.

Beware the grue!

dark.


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lindsay.cowell
2014-03-05 14:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?

Lindsay Cowell.
dark
2014-03-05 17:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lindsay.

People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).

That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.

I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.

it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
darren_g_harris
2014-03-05 17:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Cool what you beta testing for dark? That astro galaxies game?

-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
Date: 05:03:2014 5.04 pm

Hi Lindsay.

People are still making games for windows, especially many of the people
like Spoonbil, Aprone and Gma who always have, plus there are things like
interactive fiction, browser games, muds, text rpgs and the like (I was beta
testing a text rpg game for windows just the other day).

That is aside from the japanese games, though etting those to run is
something of a process and not something I've attempted as yet myself.

I don't actually think less developement is happening on windows, it's just
that such a lot is going on on the Iphone there is considderable amount of
news and discussion about the subject, so the windows side of things seems
less than it is.

it is also the case that with access easier to implement on the Iphone, more
new developers are coming to write for it than new devs for windows, which
is just a consequence of the technology, and obviously a very good one if
you have an Iphone.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


---
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Thomas Ward
2014-03-05 19:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lindsay,

Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.

On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.

Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.

In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.

Cheers!


On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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lindsay.cowell
2014-03-05 21:14:12 UTC
Permalink
I hope not. Apple devices arre more expensive than windows devices. I for one can not afford an IPhone.

Lindsay Cowell

-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?
From: "Darren Harris" <darren_g_harris at btinternet.com>
Date: 05/03/2014 8:54 pm

I think though sooner or later a lot more games will be developed for apple
devices over windows because voiceover is built in. which is going to make
it easier for finding the relevant information in order to make it work.
With windows the developer not only has to make it work with the os but also
with third party screen readers and it's the fact that there are multiple
screen readers which is the problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir
Sent: 05 March 2014 20:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New games for windows not being produced any more?

The only game I know of under development for Windows is Three
Monkeys. It's going to be an audio action roleplaying games using
binaural sound. That should be pretty awesome. News of accessible Game
development has always been very slow in coming for numerous reasons.
The only area where I think this has really changed is with games for
the iOS devices like iPAD or iPHONE. Some developers have gotten a lot
more hesitant to post news about games they're working on since people
are inevidably disappointed when things are delayed.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Lindsay,
Yes, there are still accessible games for Windows being developed.
Although, you don't always here about them on this list there are
various new games available that have been written in the last few
months or so.
From Draconis Entertainment we have their Silver Dollar game for
Windows as well as for Mac. Draconis has also released Change Reaction
2.0 for Windows as well.
From Blind Adrenaline we have Rail Racer 2.0 in beta, and should be
made available as a full version sometime in the next few months.
On the Audio Games Forum someone has recently rewritten Hack by
Daniel Zingaro in BGT and released it as freeware for Windows.
Then, of course, I myself am still developing games, but do to time
and circumstance haven't been able to bring any of my projects to
release just yet. However, I can say there are more games coming from
me hopefully in the not too distant future.
In short, while games for the PC are seemingly few and far between
that doesn't mean nobody is developing them. they are still under
development even if it seems like they aren't.
Cheers!
On 3/5/14, lindsay.cowell at virginmedia.com
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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Post by Thomas Ward
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--
Michael Feir

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca

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Eleanor
2014-03-05 21:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Yes there are still games being produced for Windows. We just
released another game in the Inspector Cyndi in Newport series, Dead
Man's Chest. It is available on our website www.7128.com.

In addition, we also released a kid's game for Windows, Find It - for
kids 8 and up.

Eleanor Robinson
7-1287 Software
shaun everiss
2014-03-06 07:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Windows is still one of the major gaming systems the blind will use
for a while.
True there are a lot of mainstream accessable games from smart phones
apple and android devices and some consoles.
However most that can afford it are moving to win7 and up now.
Yes eventually we may loose some of the vb6 titles but right now we
are still going.
Post by lindsay.cowell
Are games for windows not being produced any more, if so, what games?
Lindsay Cowell.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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