Discussion:
FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
(too old to reply)
michael barnes
2012-02-05 01:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Hey, All.
I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
'"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
is go to http://www.visio.org
and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
ryan chou
2012-02-05 01:38:08 UTC
Permalink
uh, no offense intended, but there are quite a number of accessible
wii games, wii sports, dragon ball Z budokai tenkaichi 3 and tatsunoko
VS capcom to list a few

On 2/4/12, michael barnes <cyco at samobile.net> wrote:
> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
> '"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
> >From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
> you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-05 01:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Can we have some details about what kind of game this actually is? Action?
Puzzle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael barnes" <cyco at samobile.net>
To: <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 5:20 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call '"The
> Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then you
> will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 02:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Well, those games sound nice but they are not fully accessible for
someone who is totally blind.
I understand that you can play those games, but however I don't like
that I have to remember menus and have to have a sighted person to help
me play the games.
That is why I am into accessible games for the blind.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 02:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Well it's a maze game that is fully accessible for the totally blind.
The game requires the player to use the balance board, and the story is
you are looking for treasure. You will face different kinds of challenges.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-05 02:54:07 UTC
Permalink
I'm with the others. There are a lot more interesting titles out there.

On 2/4/12, michael barnes <cyco at samobile.net> wrote:
> Well it's a maze game that is fully accessible for the totally blind.
> The game requires the player to use the balance board, and the story is
> you are looking for treasure. You will face different kinds of challenges.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-05 07:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Yeah... gotta agree with Brian. Maze games are all well and good... but
doesn't sound too complex. I'll take Tatsunoko vs. Capcom any day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "BRYAN PETERSON" <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> I'm with the others. There are a lot more interesting titles out there.
>
michael barnes
2012-02-05 03:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Once again, some of you might have sighted assistance to read to you
all the menus and other game stuff.
But I don't have anyone around to help me with the games that I got for
my Wii, however if I didn't have to remember the menus then I would be
happy. Take some of the audio games for exsample, in Shades of doom
the menus talk so you know what you are on, and doing the game play you
know what is going on in the game.
With a game like Pokemon the menus and game play screen is not
accessible so you don't really know what is going on.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Ron Kolesar
2012-02-05 04:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Hey Mike.
Get a hold of me.
Is this 100 percent blind friendly, or do we need sighted assitance?
The price is right but is it realy fully blind friendly?
Many Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: michael barnes
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 8:20 PM
To: gamers at audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hey, All.
I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
'"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
is go to http://www.visio.org
and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.

Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
hands down any day of the week."
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-05 04:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Not only that but it doesn't seem in character for Nintendo to allow a
game to be marketed on one of their consoles for free.

On 2/4/12, Ron Kolesar <kolesar16417 at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Hey Mike.
> Get a hold of me.
> Is this 100 percent blind friendly, or do we need sighted assitance?
> The price is right but is it realy fully blind friendly?
> Many Thanks.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael barnes
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 8:20 PM
> To: gamers at audyssey.org
> Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
> '"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
> >From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
> you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
> Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
> hands down any day of the week."
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
michael barnes
2012-02-05 04:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Yes it is fully accessible to the blind without sighted assistance.
The neat thing about the game is you move around on the board to move
your character.
I'll be getting a board for my Wii so I can play it.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 04:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Well Brian.
If you go to website then you will see what I'm talking about.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Ron Kolesar
2012-02-05 04:21:22 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: michael barnes
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 8:20 PM
To: gamers at audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hey, All.
I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
'"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
is go to http://www.visio.org
and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.

--
Are you sure it's free?
I just went out to the site and it looks like they are charging $10.00 for
it.
Need more info on it if possible.
Thanks.

Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.

Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
hands down any day of the week."
michael barnes
2012-02-05 04:31:21 UTC
Permalink
That is odd, because when you feel in the edit boxes it does not have
anywhere to pay for the game.
So I can say this just fill out the form and if you get a copy then the
game was free.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Ron Kolesar
2012-02-05 05:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Ok mike.
I filled out the info for the game.
I too will need to pick up a balance board as well.
I also wrote them a nice letter asking what this blind person can do to help
them beta test new up coming products for we who also want to get in on the
new wii virual reality gaming world like our sighted friends are already
doing.
Will keep everyone up to date if I hear of anything.
Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: michael barnes
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:31 PM
To: gamers at audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

That is odd, because when you feel in the edit boxes it does not have
anywhere to pay for the game.
So I can say this just fill out the form and if you get a copy then the
game was free.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.

Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
hands down any day of the week."
michael barnes
2012-02-05 05:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Hey, that is great!
For those who want to know more about the game you can download the
manuel in a audio format. The tracks 18 and up are the english part of
the manuel.
The rest is the manuel in dutch.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Phil Vlasak
2012-02-05 12:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Michael,
I sent this message to this list about that game back on
January 22, 2012.
'The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab' Launch
Published by: BillGameBase on 24th Mar 2011 | View all blogs by BillGameBase

On Friday 25 March 2011, Royal Dutch Visio, Centre of Expertise for blind
and partially sighted people will host the worldwide launch of a unique game
for the Wii game computer. For the first time, children with and without
visual impairment can play together on an equal level, thanks to the game
called "The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab". The Mayor of
Haren - no less - will be present at the launching of this game, which will
take place at Visio Education Centre in Haren. Mayor Boumans will compete
against the best player from Visio.

Visio supports, encourages and counsels visually impaired people by
providing various courses, training and programmes. In addition to the
positive effect of playing unhindered with peers on an equal level, this
game also contributes to improving motoric functions and physical
coordination.

International introduction
In addition to the school in Haren, four other Visio schools will be
involved in the introduction of this game. A school in Sarajevo (Bosnia)
will also participate in the launch via the partnership with Visio
International. Via Skype connection, the various sites will be connected
with the main site in Haren so they will experience the official
presentation live. Before the launch, all the schools will work on a
week-long subject: Egypt. The education institutes already have contact with
each other via Skype and Facebook. See www.visio.org/Wii-game

Development
At the end of 2008 the collaboration partners - MAD multimedia, Principal
Blue, TNO and Royal Dutch Visio - had decided to give the concept of Serious
Gaming a new dimension. Within two years and with a subsidy from Innovative
Action Programme in Groningen (Dutch: IAG2) the first official Nintendo Wii
game was developed for children with or without visual impairment. The
process used for this development is called co-creation, a technique in
which the end user is involved in the development of new products and
services. Visually impaired, blind and full sighted children contributed to
the content and form of this game, while physical therapists, exercise
specialists and teachers monitored the motoric aspects.

The outcome
In this game you play the role of Ben the Archaeologist who is searching for
the Temple of the Diamond Scarab. Once he is in the temple he meets Tiri, an
enchanting Egyptian princess. Going through a maze of underground passages
they look for ancient Egyptian treasures and confront various challenges.
The Guardian leads them step by step to the exit. The game is played on a
Balance Board, a standard Wii accessory. With this you can move through the
maze, find treasures and enter challenging situations. Since this is the
first game in the world developed jointly for visually impaired, blind and
fully sighted children, the game can be played in Dutch and in English.

To order the Wii game
As of April the wii game The Explorer can be ordered here:
http://www.visio.org/Wii-game


http://www.gamebase.info/magazine/read/the-explorer-and-the-mystery-of-the-diamond-scarab-launch_489.html


----- Original Message -----
From: "michael barnes" <cyco at samobile.net>
To: <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 8:20 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call '"The
> Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then you
> will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4788 - Release Date: 02/04/12
>
Orin
2012-02-05 14:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
I never have sighted assistance when playing games you call inaccessible such as fighting games, so would you please stop saying crap about how inaccessible they are when you aren't even trying to learn? When I do play, I can play fighting games just fine and never once had sighted assistance.
Orin
orin8722 at gmail.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks
Skype: orin1112



On Feb 4, 2012, at 10:41 PM, michael barnes wrote:

> Once again, some of you might have sighted assistance to read to you all the menus and other game stuff.
> But I don't have anyone around to help me with the games that I got for my Wii, however if I didn't have to remember the menus then I would be happy. Take some of the audio games for exsample, in Shades of doom the menus talk so you know what you are on, and doing the game play you know what is going on in the game.
> With a game like Pokemon the menus and game play screen is not accessible so you don't really know what is going on.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Ben
2012-02-05 15:08:24 UTC
Permalink
I only have help when a game absolutely needs it, but other than that I get
help from friends on here or in other places.

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Orin
Sent: 05 February 2012 14:48
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hello,
I never have sighted assistance when playing games you call inaccessible
such as fighting games, so would you please stop saying crap about how
inaccessible they are when you aren't even trying to learn? When I do play,
I can play fighting games just fine and never once had sighted assistance.
Orin
orin8722 at gmail.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks
Skype: orin1112



On Feb 4, 2012, at 10:41 PM, michael barnes wrote:

> Once again, some of you might have sighted assistance to read to you all
the menus and other game stuff.
> But I don't have anyone around to help me with the games that I got for my
Wii, however if I didn't have to remember the menus then I would be happy.
Take some of the audio games for exsample, in Shades of doom the menus talk
so you know what you are on, and doing the game play you know what is going
on in the game.
> With a game like Pokemon the menus and game play screen is not accessible
so you don't really know what is going on.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list, please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4789 - Release Date: 02/04/12
michael barnes
2012-02-05 14:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Well I have tried to play games without sighted help but I still would
like to know what is in the menus.
I would like to also know what is on the screen. These details are
important for me, so I can enjoy the game more!
Can anyone play The Legend Of Zelda games with no sight? I don't think so.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Orin
2012-02-05 15:29:52 UTC
Permalink
No, we can't play Zelda without sighted help, just as we can't play shooters without help. Sad but true.

Orin
orin8722 at gmail.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks
Skype: orin1112



On Feb 5, 2012, at 9:57 AM, michael barnes wrote:

> Well I have tried to play games without sighted help but I still would like to know what is in the menus.
> I would like to also know what is on the screen. These details are important for me, so I can enjoy the game more!
> Can anyone play The Legend Of Zelda games with no sight? I don't think so.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 16:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Hey, Orin.
That's my point of why I enjoy fully accessible games, like the ones
that people make especially for the blind.
Now I'm not saying the way that some people on here play their Wii is a
bad thing, but for me I would rather play a game that is fully
accessible to the blind. The Explorer And The Mystery Of The Diamond
Scarab, yes it is a maze game however you do have to do different tasks
such as battle with snakes ghosts and etc.
The neat thing about the game is not only do you use the balance board
to move around in the game but you also use the Wii remote and the
nunchuck to battle with.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Clement Chou
2012-02-05 18:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to figure
out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and listening.
Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled with
self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that are
indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly is
wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of willingness
for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different thing,
but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game which
is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one of
us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And if
not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most fighting
games have a similar main menu structure.
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-05 19:36:07 UTC
Permalink
I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
cheaply.

On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to figure
>
> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and listening.
> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled with
>
> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that are
>
> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly is
>
> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of willingness
> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different thing,
>
> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game which
>
> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one of
>
> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And if
>
> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most fighting
>
> games have a similar main menu structure.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Paul Lemm
2012-02-05 21:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like mortal
combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight but
surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them a
try myself.


--Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
cheaply.

On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
figure
>
> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and listening.
> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
with
>
> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
are
>
> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
is
>
> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of willingness
> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
thing,
>
> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
which
>
> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
of
>
> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
if
>
> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
fighting
>
> games have a similar main menu structure.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-05 21:44:47 UTC
Permalink
I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).

On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> mortal
> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> but
> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them a
> try myself.
>
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
> cheaply.
>
> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> figure
>>
>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> listening.
>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
> with
>>
>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
> are
>>
>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
> is
>>
>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> willingness
>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
> thing,
>>
>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
> which
>>
>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
> of
>>
>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
> if
>>
>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
> fighting
>>
>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Paul Lemm
2012-02-05 22:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should have
got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too, MC
just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream games
before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of them
and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to play
them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and give
it a go.

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).

On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> mortal
> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> but
> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
a
> try myself.
>
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
> cheaply.
>
> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> figure
>>
>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> listening.
>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
> with
>>
>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
> are
>>
>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
> is
>>
>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> willingness
>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
> thing,
>>
>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
> which
>>
>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
> of
>>
>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
> if
>>
>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
> fighting
>>
>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
Dakotah Rickard
2012-02-05 22:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Well, first off, I like that there's a group out there trying to
develop an accessible game for a mainstream console. Yeah, I play
games by memorization, but I have to be honest that I do like the idea
of a game where I don't have to memorize it to be certain of my
choices.
I play Tekken games, and I have to admit that I do, in fact, beat the
tar out of some people, but part of that is luck, something on which
my counterparts don't so much depend. Part of it, true, is skill, but
we mustn't simply dismiss a complaint because we don't like it, that
is that most games aren't really accessible.
If I do something truly extraordinary on Tekken and nobody's there to
describe it, I know I've done something awesome, but I can't be
certain of what it is. Sometimes, it's something really silly that
gets me a win, like punching someone's foot which knocks them out.
Truthfully, though we're playing inaccessible games, they aren't truly
as open to us as they are to the sighted folk, only because they have
more information, so seeing a game that is entirely accessible,
complicated or not, is a great boost to my confidence that games that
are like in effect although different in scope might be developed more
often, leveling the playing field of those with and iwithot useful
vision.

To make things more concise, it isn't fair to dismiss a game as not
complex enough without trying it, and it isn't fair to dismiss a game
as too complex without trying it. We should all do what we can to be
fair and open-minded to all the gaming opportunities that exist.

Signed:
Dakotah Rickard

On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
> Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should have
> got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too, MC
> just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream games
> before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of them
> and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to play
> them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and give
> it a go.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
> but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
> And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
> C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
> is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
> mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
> Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
> lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
> the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).
>
> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>> mortal
>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>> but
>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
> a
>> try myself.
>>
>>
>> --Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>> cheaply.
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>> figure
>>>
>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>> listening.
>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
>> with
>>>
>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
>> are
>>>
>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
>> is
>>>
>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>> willingness
>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>> thing,
>>>
>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>> which
>>>
>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
>> of
>>>
>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
>> if
>>>
>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>> fighting
>>>
>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 06:19:58 UTC
Permalink
The amount of info you get is largely dependent on the game. I can almost
always tell what I'm doing in tekken, based off what buttons I press. Little
details like where exactly I punch someone to knock them out don't matter..
and if you find a good movelist the move names are pretty informative, and
some people even describe the moves. But to each their own, I guess.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dakotah Rickard" <dakotah.rickard at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Well, first off, I like that there's a group out there trying to
> develop an accessible game for a mainstream console. Yeah, I play
> games by memorization, but I have to be honest that I do like the idea
> of a game where I don't have to memorize it to be certain of my
> choices.
> I play Tekken games, and I have to admit that I do, in fact, beat the
> tar out of some people, but part of that is luck, something on which
> my counterparts don't so much depend. Part of it, true, is skill, but
> we mustn't simply dismiss a complaint because we don't like it, that
> is that most games aren't really accessible.
> If I do something truly extraordinary on Tekken and nobody's there to
> describe it, I know I've done something awesome, but I can't be
> certain of what it is. Sometimes, it's something really silly that
> gets me a win, like punching someone's foot which knocks them out.
> Truthfully, though we're playing inaccessible games, they aren't truly
> as open to us as they are to the sighted folk, only because they have
> more information, so seeing a game that is entirely accessible,
> complicated or not, is a great boost to my confidence that games that
> are like in effect although different in scope might be developed more
> often, leveling the playing field of those with and iwithot useful
> vision.
>
> To make things more concise, it isn't fair to dismiss a game as not
> complex enough without trying it, and it isn't fair to dismiss a game
> as too complex without trying it. We should all do what we can to be
> fair and open-minded to all the gaming opportunities that exist.
>
> Signed:
> Dakotah Rickard
>
> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>> Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should have
>> got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too,
>> MC
>> just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream
>> games
>> before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of
>> them
>> and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to
>> play
>> them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and
>> give
>> it a go.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
>> but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
>> And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
>> C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
>> is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
>> mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
>> Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
>> lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
>> the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>>> mortal
>>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>>> I've
>>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>>> but
>>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>>> they
>>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>>> them
>> a
>>> try myself.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>>> cheaply.
>>>
>>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>>> listening.
>>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
>>> with
>>>>
>>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
>>> are
>>>>
>>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>>> as
>>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>>> exactly
>>> is
>>>>
>>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>>> willingness
>>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>>> so
>>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>>> thing,
>>>>
>>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>>> get
>>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just
>>>> my
>>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>>> which
>>>>
>>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>>> one
>>> of
>>>>
>>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>>> And
>>> if
>>>>
>>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why
>>>> I
>>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>>> get
>>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>>> fighting
>>>>
>>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Paul Lemm
2012-02-06 22:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Well after all this my ps2 doesn't work anymore so it looks like I'll have
to wait and see how I find playing a fighting game. I do still play a few
main stream games but had just never considered a fighting game. My little
boy has a WII and there are a few games that are playable and some games
such as WII sports tennis I can even beat a few of my sighted friends that
are experienced gamers so do appreciate that with enough practise that it is
possible to play some main stream games.) but agree with the point these
games are playable rather than accessible also hats off to the company
making the game this subject was about as I understand the point of the game
is that it can be play by either a sighted person or a none sighted person
on a completely even playing field with no disadvantage to eitherperson
playing the game

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Clement Chou
Sent: 06 February 2012 06:20
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

The amount of info you get is largely dependent on the game. I can almost
always tell what I'm doing in tekken, based off what buttons I press. Little

details like where exactly I punch someone to knock them out don't matter..
and if you find a good movelist the move names are pretty informative, and
some people even describe the moves. But to each their own, I guess.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dakotah Rickard" <dakotah.rickard at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Well, first off, I like that there's a group out there trying to
> develop an accessible game for a mainstream console. Yeah, I play
> games by memorization, but I have to be honest that I do like the idea
> of a game where I don't have to memorize it to be certain of my
> choices.
> I play Tekken games, and I have to admit that I do, in fact, beat the
> tar out of some people, but part of that is luck, something on which
> my counterparts don't so much depend. Part of it, true, is skill, but
> we mustn't simply dismiss a complaint because we don't like it, that
> is that most games aren't really accessible.
> If I do something truly extraordinary on Tekken and nobody's there to
> describe it, I know I've done something awesome, but I can't be
> certain of what it is. Sometimes, it's something really silly that
> gets me a win, like punching someone's foot which knocks them out.
> Truthfully, though we're playing inaccessible games, they aren't truly
> as open to us as they are to the sighted folk, only because they have
> more information, so seeing a game that is entirely accessible,
> complicated or not, is a great boost to my confidence that games that
> are like in effect although different in scope might be developed more
> often, leveling the playing field of those with and iwithot useful
> vision.
>
> To make things more concise, it isn't fair to dismiss a game as not
> complex enough without trying it, and it isn't fair to dismiss a game
> as too complex without trying it. We should all do what we can to be
> fair and open-minded to all the gaming opportunities that exist.
>
> Signed:
> Dakotah Rickard
>
> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>> Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should have
>> got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too,
>> MC
>> just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream
>> games
>> before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of
>> them
>> and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to
>> play
>> them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and
>> give
>> it a go.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
>> but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
>> And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
>> C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
>> is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
>> mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
>> Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
>> lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
>> the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>>> mortal
>>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>>> I've
>>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>>> but
>>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>>> they
>>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>>> them
>> a
>>> try myself.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>>> cheaply.
>>>
>>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>>> listening.
>>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
>>> with
>>>>
>>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
>>> are
>>>>
>>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>>> as
>>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>>> exactly
>>> is
>>>>
>>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>>> willingness
>>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>>> so
>>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>>> thing,
>>>>
>>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>>> get
>>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just
>>>> my
>>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>>> which
>>>>
>>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>>> one
>>> of
>>>>
>>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>>> And
>>> if
>>>>
>>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why

>>>> I
>>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>>> get
>>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>>> fighting
>>>>
>>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-07 18:46:50 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Trouble. While at first you may be just that, hitting
buttons and hearing sounds, you can with patience and practice learn
to play many mainstream games and not just fighters. I used to have
endless fun with the old NES game Excitebike just to pick one at
random. And while I did crash my bike a lot at first I quickly learned
how to minimize or at least greatly reduce those occurrences based on,
you guessed it, sound alone. And you can bet I did get the thrilll of
racing along the race track even without the wind rushing by me.

On 2/6/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
> Well after all this my ps2 doesn't work anymore so it looks like I'll have
> to wait and see how I find playing a fighting game. I do still play a few
> main stream games but had just never considered a fighting game. My little
> boy has a WII and there are a few games that are playable and some games
> such as WII sports tennis I can even beat a few of my sighted friends that
> are experienced gamers so do appreciate that with enough practise that it
> is
> possible to play some main stream games.) but agree with the point these
> games are playable rather than accessible also hats off to the company
> making the game this subject was about as I understand the point of the
> game
> is that it can be play by either a sighted person or a none sighted person
> on a completely even playing field with no disadvantage to eitherperson
> playing the game
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of Clement Chou
> Sent: 06 February 2012 06:20
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> The amount of info you get is largely dependent on the game. I can almost
> always tell what I'm doing in tekken, based off what buttons I press.
> Little
>
> details like where exactly I punch someone to knock them out don't matter..
>
> and if you find a good movelist the move names are pretty informative, and
> some people even describe the moves. But to each their own, I guess.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dakotah Rickard" <dakotah.rickard at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 2:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> Well, first off, I like that there's a group out there trying to
>> develop an accessible game for a mainstream console. Yeah, I play
>> games by memorization, but I have to be honest that I do like the idea
>> of a game where I don't have to memorize it to be certain of my
>> choices.
>> I play Tekken games, and I have to admit that I do, in fact, beat the
>> tar out of some people, but part of that is luck, something on which
>> my counterparts don't so much depend. Part of it, true, is skill, but
>> we mustn't simply dismiss a complaint because we don't like it, that
>> is that most games aren't really accessible.
>> If I do something truly extraordinary on Tekken and nobody's there to
>> describe it, I know I've done something awesome, but I can't be
>> certain of what it is. Sometimes, it's something really silly that
>> gets me a win, like punching someone's foot which knocks them out.
>> Truthfully, though we're playing inaccessible games, they aren't truly
>> as open to us as they are to the sighted folk, only because they have
>> more information, so seeing a game that is entirely accessible,
>> complicated or not, is a great boost to my confidence that games that
>> are like in effect although different in scope might be developed more
>> often, leveling the playing field of those with and iwithot useful
>> vision.
>>
>> To make things more concise, it isn't fair to dismiss a game as not
>> complex enough without trying it, and it isn't fair to dismiss a game
>> as too complex without trying it. We should all do what we can to be
>> fair and open-minded to all the gaming opportunities that exist.
>>
>> Signed:
>> Dakotah Rickard
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>> Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should
>>> have
>>> got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too,
>>>
>>> MC
>>> just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream
>>> games
>>> before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of
>>> them
>>> and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to
>>> play
>>> them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and
>>> give
>>> it a go.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
>>> but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
>>> And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
>>> C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
>>> is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
>>> mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
>>> Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
>>> lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
>>> the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).
>>>
>>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>>>> mortal
>>>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>>>> I've
>>>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my
>>>> sight
>>>> but
>>>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>>>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>>>> they
>>>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with
>>>> no
>>>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>>>> them
>>> a
>>>> try myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --Original Message-----
>>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>>>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>>>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>>>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>>>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>>>> cheaply.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>>>> figure
>>>>>
>>>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>>>> listening.
>>>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>>>>> spoiled
>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>>>>> that
>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>>>>
>>>>> as
>>>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>>>> exactly
>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>>>> willingness
>>>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>>>>
>>>>> so
>>>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to
>>>>> be
>>>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>>>> thing,
>>>>>
>>>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>>>> get
>>>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just
>>>>> my
>>>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>>>> which
>>>>>
>>>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>>>> one
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>>>> And
>>>> if
>>>>>
>>>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>>>>> why
>
>>>>> I
>>>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>>>> get
>>>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring
>>>>> out
>>>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>>>> fighting
>>>>>
>>>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>>> 02/05/12
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 19:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Well, if you want to mess around with a fighting game on the wii, nab
yourself a classic controller and pick up Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom. That's
probably the best fighting game on the wii right now.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lemm" <paul.lemm at sky.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Well after all this my ps2 doesn't work anymore so it looks like I'll have
> to wait and see how I find playing a fighting game. I do still play a few
> main stream games but had just never considered a fighting game. My little
> boy has a WII and there are a few games that are playable and some games
> such as WII sports tennis I can even beat a few of my sighted friends that
> are experienced gamers so do appreciate that with enough practise that it
> is
> possible to play some main stream games.) but agree with the point these
> games are playable rather than accessible also hats off to the company
> making the game this subject was about as I understand the point of the
> game
> is that it can be play by either a sighted person or a none sighted person
> on a completely even playing field with no disadvantage to eitherperson
> playing the game
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of Clement Chou
> Sent: 06 February 2012 06:20
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> The amount of info you get is largely dependent on the game. I can almost
> always tell what I'm doing in tekken, based off what buttons I press.
> Little
>
> details like where exactly I punch someone to knock them out don't
> matter..
> and if you find a good movelist the move names are pretty informative, and
> some people even describe the moves. But to each their own, I guess.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dakotah Rickard" <dakotah.rickard at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 2:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> Well, first off, I like that there's a group out there trying to
>> develop an accessible game for a mainstream console. Yeah, I play
>> games by memorization, but I have to be honest that I do like the idea
>> of a game where I don't have to memorize it to be certain of my
>> choices.
>> I play Tekken games, and I have to admit that I do, in fact, beat the
>> tar out of some people, but part of that is luck, something on which
>> my counterparts don't so much depend. Part of it, true, is skill, but
>> we mustn't simply dismiss a complaint because we don't like it, that
>> is that most games aren't really accessible.
>> If I do something truly extraordinary on Tekken and nobody's there to
>> describe it, I know I've done something awesome, but I can't be
>> certain of what it is. Sometimes, it's something really silly that
>> gets me a win, like punching someone's foot which knocks them out.
>> Truthfully, though we're playing inaccessible games, they aren't truly
>> as open to us as they are to the sighted folk, only because they have
>> more information, so seeing a game that is entirely accessible,
>> complicated or not, is a great boost to my confidence that games that
>> are like in effect although different in scope might be developed more
>> often, leveling the playing field of those with and iwithot useful
>> vision.
>>
>> To make things more concise, it isn't fair to dismiss a game as not
>> complex enough without trying it, and it isn't fair to dismiss a game
>> as too complex without trying it. We should all do what we can to be
>> fair and open-minded to all the gaming opportunities that exist.
>>
>> Signed:
>> Dakotah Rickard
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>> Appreciated for the reply, my bad with the spelling mistake I should
>>> have
>>> got it right to since you referred to it as mk in the original post too,
>>> MC
>>> just wouldn't sound the same! well I've played a lot of main stream
>>> games
>>> before I lost my sight so already have a fairly good understanding of
>>> them
>>> and how they work but just guess I'd never really considered trying to
>>> play
>>> them without sight. I think I'm going to dig out my PS2 and tekken and
>>> give
>>> it a go.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:45
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> I don't know how best to explain it. Certainly it requires practice
>>> but if you're willing to make that effort you can get the hang of it.
>>> And just a slight correction, it's Kombat with a K, not Combat with a
>>> C. I'm not sure of the reasons behind the spelling but that's what it
>>> is. I suppose it's different for me because i'd played nothing but
>>> mainstream games my whole life before discovering audio games.
>>> Needless to say I was extremely disappointed at the simplicity of a
>>> lot of games. NOthing in the style of Metroid or Zelda (although Airik
>>> the Cleric is a nice representation of the latter).
>>>
>>> On 2/5/12, Paul Lemm <paul.lemm at sky.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>>>> mortal
>>>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>>>> I've
>>>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my
>>>> sight
>>>> but
>>>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>>>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>>>> they
>>>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with
>>>> no
>>>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>>>> them
>>> a
>>>> try myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --Original Message-----
>>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>>>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>>>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>>>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>>>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>>>> cheaply.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>>>> figure
>>>>>
>>>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>>>> listening.
>>>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>>>>> spoiled
>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>>>>> that
>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>>>> as
>>>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>>>> exactly
>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>>>> willingness
>>>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>>>> so
>>>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to
>>>>> be
>>>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>>>> thing,
>>>>>
>>>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>>>> get
>>>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just
>>>>> my
>>>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>>>> which
>>>>>
>>>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>>>> one
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>>>> And
>>>> if
>>>>>
>>>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>>>>> why
>
>>>>> I
>>>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>>>> get
>>>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring
>>>>> out
>>>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>>>> fighting
>>>>>
>>>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>>> 02/05/12
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Shadow Dragon
2012-02-06 04:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Just wanted to put in my two cents here. This is a reply to a message posted
a while back. You can't really say you don't know what's going on on the
screen when you actually do and can learn how to tell. I picked up the
pokemon games just fine without sighted assistance, all I needed to do was
find an FAQ on the internet and learn a bit of the menu structure. And fight
games are extremely playable, just because a game isn't an audiogame doesn't
mean you can't play it, or even that you need someone sighted to help you
play it. I'm actually a little surprised at all of this, since you were the
one that found oubliette, mike, back before it was made accessible in any
way, and you didn't seem to have a problem with that until I pointed out a
few flaws. Playing mainstream games is much the same, and 9 times out of 10
they have more depth than audiogames by far, the only game comprable at all
to anything mainstream, in my opinion at least, is Bokurano Daiboukenn.
Airik the Cleric falls far, far short of the mark, but it's closer than
most, along with entombed and sound RTS. Bokurano might as well just be a
mainstream game though. Anyway I basically just wanted to say that there are
a lot of neat games out there if you're willing to experiment, and just
because it doesn't say that it's for the blind or that it's an audiogame
doesn't mean it should hold you back from playing it.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Lemm" <paul.lemm at sky.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 02:18 PM
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

> Hi,
>
> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> mortal
> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> but
> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
> a
> try myself.
>
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
> cheaply.
>
> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> figure
>>
>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> listening.
>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
> with
>>
>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
> are
>>
>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
> is
>>
>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> willingness
>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
> thing,
>>
>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
> which
>>
>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
> of
>>
>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
> if
>>
>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
> fighting
>>
>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-06 04:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Agreed. And I didn't know about the Oubliette business. A bit ironic, no?

On 2/5/12, Shadow Dragon <elementalultima at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just wanted to put in my two cents here. This is a reply to a message posted
>
> a while back. You can't really say you don't know what's going on on the
> screen when you actually do and can learn how to tell. I picked up the
> pokemon games just fine without sighted assistance, all I needed to do was
> find an FAQ on the internet and learn a bit of the menu structure. And fight
>
> games are extremely playable, just because a game isn't an audiogame doesn't
>
> mean you can't play it, or even that you need someone sighted to help you
> play it. I'm actually a little surprised at all of this, since you were the
>
> one that found oubliette, mike, back before it was made accessible in any
> way, and you didn't seem to have a problem with that until I pointed out a
> few flaws. Playing mainstream games is much the same, and 9 times out of 10
>
> they have more depth than audiogames by far, the only game comprable at all
>
> to anything mainstream, in my opinion at least, is Bokurano Daiboukenn.
> Airik the Cleric falls far, far short of the mark, but it's closer than
> most, along with entombed and sound RTS. Bokurano might as well just be a
> mainstream game though. Anyway I basically just wanted to say that there are
>
> a lot of neat games out there if you're willing to experiment, and just
> because it doesn't say that it's for the blind or that it's an audiogame
> doesn't mean it should hold you back from playing it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Paul Lemm" <paul.lemm at sky.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 02:18 PM
> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>> mortal
>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>> I've
>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>> but
>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>> they
>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
>>
>> a
>> try myself.
>>
>>
>> --Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>> cheaply.
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>> figure
>>>
>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>> listening.
>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
>> with
>>>
>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
>> are
>>>
>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>> as
>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
>> is
>>>
>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>> willingness
>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>> so
>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>> thing,
>>>
>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>> get
>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>> which
>>>
>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
>> of
>>>
>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
>> if
>>>
>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why
>>> I
>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>> get
>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>> fighting
>>>
>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 06:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Amen to this. I agree with everything you just said... especially about
figuring the things out bit. It isn't hard to learn.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shadow Dragon" <elementalultima at hotmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Just wanted to put in my two cents here. This is a reply to a message
> posted a while back. You can't really say you don't know what's going on
> on the screen when you actually do and can learn how to tell. I picked up
> the pokemon games just fine without sighted assistance, all I needed to do
> was find an FAQ on the internet and learn a bit of the menu structure. And
> fight games are extremely playable, just because a game isn't an audiogame
> doesn't mean you can't play it, or even that you need someone sighted to
> help you play it. I'm actually a little surprised at all of this, since
> you were the one that found oubliette, mike, back before it was made
> accessible in any way, and you didn't seem to have a problem with that
> until I pointed out a few flaws. Playing mainstream games is much the
> same, and 9 times out of 10 they have more depth than audiogames by far,
> the only game comprable at all to anything mainstream, in my opinion at
> least, is Bokurano Daiboukenn. Airik the Cleric falls far, far short of
> the mark, but it's closer than most, along with entombed and sound RTS.
> Bokurano might as well just be a mainstream game though. Anyway I
> basically just wanted to say that there are a lot of neat games out there
> if you're willing to experiment, and just because it doesn't say that it's
> for the blind or that it's an audiogame doesn't mean it should hold you
> back from playing it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Paul Lemm" <paul.lemm at sky.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 02:18 PM
> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>> mortal
>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>> I've
>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>> but
>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>> they
>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
>> a
>> try myself.
>>
>>
>> --Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
>> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
>> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
>> cheaply.
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>> figure
>>>
>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>> listening.
>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
>> with
>>>
>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
>> are
>>>
>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>> as
>>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
>> is
>>>
>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>> willingness
>>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced
>>> so
>>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
>> thing,
>>>
>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>> get
>>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
>> which
>>>
>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
>> of
>>>
>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
>> if
>>>
>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why
>>> I
>>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can
>>> get
>>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
>> fighting
>>>
>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 06:13:59 UTC
Permalink
The only thing that's important is keeping track of where you are yourself.
Start with that, and then start getting into where your opponent is.
Fighting games, especially modern ones have always had a great deal of
audio, at least the good ones have. Street fighter old and new always had a
lot of sounds, and SF 4 is the best game for it. But the fact is, that's
where the strategy in fighting games comes in and shows the game's true
depth. positioning is important, and you, as the player need to make your
opponent move where you want them to. In fighting games terminology, it's
called controlling space. It's a very deep genre, and one that's quite often
underrated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lemm" <paul.lemm at sky.com>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hi,
>
> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> mortal
> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> but
> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
> a
> try myself.
>
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
> do any good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my
> point. Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got
> permission to develop games for the Wii since that couldn't have come
> cheaply.
>
> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> figure
>>
>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> listening.
>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people spoiled
> with
>>
>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games that
> are
>>
>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off as
>> not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what exactly
> is
>>
>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> willingness
>> for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long and produced so
>> many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus don't need to be
>> voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus are a different
> thing,
>>
>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and get
>> the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory. Just my
>> personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find a game
> which
>>
>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least one
> of
>>
>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones. And
> if
>>
>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is why I
>> almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre we can get
>> into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all, figuring out
>> menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily enough, most
> fighting
>>
>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Ben
2012-02-06 07:27:51 UTC
Permalink
You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is simply
that you never considered trying something new.

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Paul Lemm
Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hi,

I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like mortal
combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight but
surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them a
try myself.


--Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do any
good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to develop
games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.

On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
figure
>
> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and listening.
> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
> spoiled
with
>
> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
> that
are
>
> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
> exactly
is
>
> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
> are a different
thing,
>
> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
> a game
which
>
> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
> one
of
>
> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
> And
if
>
> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
> enough, most
fighting
>
> games have a similar main menu structure.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
Mich
2012-02-06 08:14:28 UTC
Permalink
I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was verry
good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I used to
play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have hit the
other person. from Mich.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is
> simply
> that you never considered trying something new.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> mortal
> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> but
> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
> a
> try myself.
>
>
> --Original Message-----
> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do
> any
> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
> develop
> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>
> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> figure
>>
>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> listening.
>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>> spoiled
> with
>>
>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>> that
> are
>>
>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>> exactly
> is
>>
>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
>> are a different
> thing,
>>
>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
>> a game
> which
>>
>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>> one
> of
>>
>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>> And
> if
>>
>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
>> enough, most
> fighting
>>
>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-06 09:43:27 UTC
Permalink
That's getting right to the point. Smile.

On 2/6/12, Mich <michv at eastlink.ca> wrote:
> I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was verry
>
> good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I used to
> play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have hit the
>
> other person. from Mich.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is
>> simply
>> that you never considered trying something new.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
>> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>> mortal
>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>> I've
>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>> but
>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>> they
>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
>>
>> a
>> try myself.
>>
>>
>> --Original Message-----
>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do
>> any
>> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
>> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
>> develop
>> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>>
>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>> figure
>>>
>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>> listening.
>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>>> spoiled
>> with
>>>
>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>>> that
>> are
>>>
>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>> exactly
>> is
>>>
>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
>>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
>>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
>>> are a different
>> thing,
>>>
>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
>>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
>>> a game
>> which
>>>
>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>> one
>> of
>>>
>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>> And
>> if
>>>
>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
>>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
>>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
>>> enough, most
>> fighting
>>>
>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
dan cook
2012-02-06 10:51:15 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Clement, and the others, which shouldn't surprise any of
you that know me. :)
All mainstream fighting games for example require is a rezilient attitude.
What I mean is that like anything, there is a lot of trial and error
involved, as you're not going to figure anything out all in one go.
JUst keep trying and eventually you'll succeed.
Heck i'm trying blazblue CT at the moment, boy that game's faster than
any other mainstream game i've played and I've been playing them all
my life.
At the moment, i'm kind of struggling and only getting wins by turning
the stick and pressing A b c or d, attempting to get used to moves.
I'm sure it'll come eventually though, because just because something
seems hard at first, doesn't mean its necessarily impossible.
So Michael and others, take a capcom wii game for example, and start
by fiddling around with it. eventually you'll get the hang of it.
hope this made sense as i've sort of got to run now.

On 2/6/12, BRYAN PETERSON <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net> wrote:
> That's getting right to the point. Smile.
>
> On 2/6/12, Mich <michv at eastlink.ca> wrote:
>> I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was
>> verry
>>
>> good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I used to
>> play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have hit
>> the
>>
>> other person. from Mich.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
>> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is
>>> simply
>>> that you never considered trying something new.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
>>> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>>> mortal
>>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>>> I've
>>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
>>> but
>>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>>> they
>>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
>>>
>>> a
>>> try myself.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Original Message-----
>>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do
>>> any
>>> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
>>> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
>>> develop
>>> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>>>
>>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>>> listening.
>>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>>>> spoiled
>>> with
>>>>
>>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>>>> that
>>> are
>>>>
>>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
>>>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>>> exactly
>>> is
>>>>
>>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
>>>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
>>>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
>>>> are a different
>>> thing,
>>>>
>>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
>>>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
>>>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
>>>> a game
>>> which
>>>>
>>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>>>> one
>>> of
>>>>
>>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>>>> And
>>> if
>>>>
>>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>>>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
>>>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
>>>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
>>>> enough, most
>>> fighting
>>>>
>>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>>>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>>
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
dark
2012-02-06 11:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan.

While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization of
a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are not
considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or that
people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good fun,
only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" and
will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can play
it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, screen
readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).

Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, how
long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single game
ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
structure are more playable than others.

However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible games
on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of Faqs
to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of game
sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.

As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"

Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play, mainstream
companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already make
them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"

Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play 2D
platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
we've already done what you want"

Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty feeble
access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to play
those bits" which was down right offensive!

So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play mainstream
games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like something
like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from the
start as easily as a sighted gamer.

Hope this makes sense.

All the best,

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2012-02-06 12:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
means says fully accessible as most people understand it.

Cheers!


On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
> Hi Dan.
>
> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization of
> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are not
> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or that
> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good fun,
> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible" and
> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can play
> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person, screen
> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>
> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object, how
> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single game
> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
> structure are more playable than others.
>
> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible games
> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of Faqs
> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of game
> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>
> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>
> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play, mainstream
> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already make
> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>
> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play 2D
> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
> we've already done what you want"
>
> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty feeble
> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to play
> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>
> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play mainstream
> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like something
> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from the
> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>
> Hope this makes sense.
>
> All the best,
>
> Dark.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
dark
2012-02-06 14:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

This is actually a general problem with the defifnition of accessibility,
rather than a specifically game related matter.

commonly, governments, individuals and institutions use the word
"accessible" to mean "have access to" irrispective of the amount of trouble,
effort or inconvenience this access causes.

Thus, a building can be considdered "wheel chair accessible" even when it
has only one rampk, which requires the wheel chair user to go right around
the outside of the building for a long distance and pump their chair up a
three floor long incline then back round once again, where as everyone else
with working legs can just walk streight up the steps to the front door.
(this is not an exaggeration, I've seen a theatre that does this and claimes
that they are accessible to wheel chairs).

thus, the deffinition I'm working on for my phd thesis, says that
"accessible" refers to how equalized the amount of effort betwene an average
disabled person and an average none disabled person are with respect to any
particular thing, and while the difference in effort is so utterly
unreasonable, we can't say that a thing is accessible even if it is
something that a disabled person is not actually utterly precluded from
doing.

So, while absolutely all games may be playable, and some may be playable
with less effort than others on the part of a blind user, only those that go
some way towards equalizing the effort are in any sense accessible.

So, though I don't blame people for talking about "accessible" mainstream
games, I do think it results from a rather faulty deffinition of what
accessible means, and indeed the deffinition in the guidelines for what
games are and are not allowed on the audiogames.net db, is the one I've just
outlined based on effort.

Btw, it's nice to know my Phd is already! being practically useful :D.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Dark,
>
> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
> means says fully accessible as most people understand it.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
>> Hi Dan.
>>
>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization
>> of
>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are
>> not
>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or
>> that
>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good
>> fun,
>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible"
>> and
>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can
>> play
>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person,
>> screen
>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>>
>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object,
>> how
>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single
>> game
>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
>> structure are more playable than others.
>>
>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible
>> games
>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of
>> Faqs
>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of
>> game
>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>>
>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>>
>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play,
>> mainstream
>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already
>> make
>> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>>
>> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
>> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play
>> 2D
>> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
>> we've already done what you want"
>>
>> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty
>> feeble
>> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
>> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to
>> play
>> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>>
>> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play
>> mainstream
>> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
>> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like
>> something
>> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from
>> the
>> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>>
>> Hope this makes sense.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2012-02-06 16:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, I don't know about your thesis, but I agree that the definition
of accessibility is flawed. Most people use the word not thinking
about what it truly means in terms of equal effort to access and use
the same thing as a non-disabled person. It requires a slightly higher
intellectual way of looking at things or personal experience to really
see what accessibility means. Case in point.

When Esther and I moved into this place we were given a microwave as a
gift from her family. They asked if I would be able to use the
microwave. She responded once I labeled all the buttons it would be
accessible. that, of course, was actually over stating the case.

I could braille the buttons on the microwave and therefore it was
usable, but not accessible. There are still plenty of features such as
the clock I can't use, and I can't see the time remaining on the
display as food is cooking. I can't set the time and date on the clock
either because it requires reading the prompts or at least memorizing
them. There is a way to change the power level from low, to medium, or
high and I obviously can't read the display to see what power level it
is set at causing problems with over cooking or under cooking food. So
to be safe I set the power level out of habit before setting the time.

So there is a simple but prime example of just because I can use
something doesn't mean I necessarily get full functionality out of it.
Its usable, but not fully accessible.

The same principle applies to mainstream games. I've recently gotten
my hands on some of the wrestling games, and I can say a blind player
can play them, but I won't say they are accessible. It takes some
memorization to get through the menus, and the controls are slightly
different for each wrestler because some are brawlers, grapplers, and
powerhouses. A powerhouse type wrestler might perform a lot of throws
like body slams where a grappler is best at headlocks and submission
moves. A brawler can perform punches, kicks, etc. You have to learn
what button does what in the context of the game. It can certainly be
done, but takes more effort than anyone else to learn the game and to
access the menus etc.

Cheers!


On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> This is actually a general problem with the defifnition of accessibility,
> rather than a specifically game related matter.
>
> commonly, governments, individuals and institutions use the word
> "accessible" to mean "have access to" irrispective of the amount of trouble,
> effort or inconvenience this access causes.
>
> Thus, a building can be considdered "wheel chair accessible" even when it
> has only one rampk, which requires the wheel chair user to go right around
> the outside of the building for a long distance and pump their chair up a
> three floor long incline then back round once again, where as everyone else
> with working legs can just walk streight up the steps to the front door.
> (this is not an exaggeration, I've seen a theatre that does this and claimes
> that they are accessible to wheel chairs).
>
> thus, the deffinition I'm working on for my phd thesis, says that
> "accessible" refers to how equalized the amount of effort betwene an average
> disabled person and an average none disabled person are with respect to any
> particular thing, and while the difference in effort is so utterly
> unreasonable, we can't say that a thing is accessible even if it is
> something that a disabled person is not actually utterly precluded from
> doing.
>
> So, while absolutely all games may be playable, and some may be playable
> with less effort than others on the part of a blind user, only those that go
> some way towards equalizing the effort are in any sense accessible.
>
> So, though I don't blame people for talking about "accessible" mainstream
> games, I do think it results from a rather faulty deffinition of what
> accessible means, and indeed the deffinition in the guidelines for what
> games are and are not allowed on the audiogames.net db, is the one I've just
> outlined based on effort.
>
> Btw, it's nice to know my Phd is already! being practically useful :D.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hi Dark,
>>
>> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
>> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
>> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
>> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
>> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
>> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
>> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
>> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
>> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
>> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
>> means says fully accessible as most people understand it.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Dan.
>>>
>>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
>>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
>>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization
>>>
>>> of
>>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are
>>> not
>>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or
>>> that
>>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good
>>> fun,
>>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible"
>>> and
>>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can
>>> play
>>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person,
>>> screen
>>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
>>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>>>
>>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
>>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object,
>>> how
>>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single
>>> game
>>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
>>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
>>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
>>> structure are more playable than others.
>>>
>>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible
>>> games
>>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of
>>> Faqs
>>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of
>>> game
>>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
>>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>>>
>>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
>>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
>>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>>>
>>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
>>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
>>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play,
>>> mainstream
>>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already
>>> make
>>> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>>>
>>> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
>>> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play
>>>
>>> 2D
>>> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
>>> we've already done what you want"
>>>
>>> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty
>>> feeble
>>> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
>>> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to
>>> play
>>> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>>>
>>> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play
>>> mainstream
>>> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
>>> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like
>>> something
>>> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from
>>> the
>>> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>>>
>>> Hope this makes sense.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Dark.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
dark
2012-02-06 17:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

this is actually good to knowk, sinse it means the idea I'm writing about in
my thesis makes sense.

My concern with the confusion over accessibilityk, is that many institutions
or individuals aimed! at disabled people do not considder this.

To use an example from my thesis, I for instance was extremely angry when my
bank catagorically refused to E-mail me statements, or discuss my bank
account over the phone. They stated that they provided braille bank
statements which was an "accessible" alternative, ignoring the fact that
skim reading is utterly impossible in braille, and I am not going to sit
down for an hour and read something it would take a sighted person just
minutes to glance through.

This was particularly irritating because previously they'd just worked over
the phone, however their new security system meant that I! had to answer
questions about the current status of my account that could only be gotten
from a quarterly bank statement.

this was actually amazingly commical, me phoning my bank to ask them what
the balance was on my creddit card or my current account and being asked to
verify my identity with the very information i! was asking them!

I've found a solution, cooperating with my local branch which is luckily
five minutes walk down the road and I pass every day, however this is a case
where an "accessible" option had been provided by the bank, but one which
was not, according to the effort it required actually accessible in the more
literal sense.

This is the tack I'm afraid that mainstream companies will take if we start
talking about how "accessible" mainstream games are, ---- afterall as I said
in my previous post, it's not as if I haven't heard that arguement before,
and if a big coorporation could improve their image by pretending to be
concerned about disabled access while effectively doing bugger all, not to
mention casting people like the game accessibility sig who campaign for true
access in a very bad light, they certainly would.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Shiny protector
2012-02-06 20:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How about
the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like structure
and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can
prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to incapacitate
you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the
playing field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Dark,
>
> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
> means says fully accessible as most people understand it.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
>> Hi Dan.
>>
>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization
>> of
>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are
>> not
>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or
>> that
>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good
>> fun,
>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible"
>> and
>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can
>> play
>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person,
>> screen
>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>>
>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object,
>> how
>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single
>> game
>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
>> structure are more playable than others.
>>
>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible
>> games
>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of
>> Faqs
>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of
>> game
>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>>
>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>>
>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play,
>> mainstream
>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already
>> make
>> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>>
>> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
>> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play
>> 2D
>> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
>> we've already done what you want"
>>
>> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty
>> feeble
>> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
>> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to
>> play
>> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>>
>> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play
>> mainstream
>> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
>> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like
>> something
>> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from
>> the
>> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>>
>> Hope this makes sense.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dan cook
2012-02-06 20:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi dark
i totally agree with your points.
I think the main thing i was trying to get across was that there are
games for the wii and such which are playable, as I'd never say that
mainstream games are fully accessible, I simply used accessible in a
loose sense, similar to how its normally used a lot at the moment.

On 2/6/12, Shiny protector <muhammed31 at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How about
> the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like structure
> and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can
> prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to incapacitate
> you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the
> playing field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hi Dark,
>>
>> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
>> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
>> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
>> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
>> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
>> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
>> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
>> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
>> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
>> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
>> means says fully accessible as most people understand it.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Dan.
>>>
>>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
>>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
>>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require memorization
>>>
>>> of
>>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are
>>> not
>>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or
>>> that
>>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good
>>> fun,
>>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only "accessible"
>>> and
>>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can
>>> play
>>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person,
>>> screen
>>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding (provided
>>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>>>
>>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely any
>>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object,
>>> how
>>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single
>>> game
>>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
>>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or vi
>>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or gameplay
>>> structure are more playable than others.
>>>
>>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible
>>> games
>>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of
>>> Faqs
>>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of
>>> game
>>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
>>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>>>
>>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to play
>>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the games
>>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>>>
>>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games, the
>>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts promoting
>>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play,
>>> mainstream
>>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already
>>> make
>>> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>>>
>>> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over low
>>> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can play
>>>
>>> 2D
>>> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible, so
>>> we've already done what you want"
>>>
>>> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty
>>> feeble
>>> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest of
>>> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to
>>> play
>>> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>>>
>>> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play
>>> mainstream
>>> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially promoting
>>> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like
>>> something
>>> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely from
>>> the
>>> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>>>
>>> Hope this makes sense.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Dark.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
dan cook
2012-02-06 20:52:55 UTC
Permalink
sorry for the double mail, but heck i'd give anything not to have to
memorise menus, as that's one of the things stopping me from getting
wwe 12 as the menus are so much more extensive especially with the new
universe mode added.

On 2/6/12, dan cook <dan.scook at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi dark
> i totally agree with your points.
> I think the main thing i was trying to get across was that there are
> games for the wii and such which are playable, as I'd never say that
> mainstream games are fully accessible, I simply used accessible in a
> loose sense, similar to how its normally used a lot at the moment.
>
> On 2/6/12, Shiny protector <muhammed31 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Another suggestion came into my head as I was reading your email. How
>> about
>> the ability to create a group of powerful shields in a dome like
>> structure
>> and hide in it? This can be overwhelmingly useful for you because you can
>> prepare to cast a spell while your opponent is attempting to
>> incapacitate
>> you. Maybe your opponent should have the same ability to so it levels the
>> playing field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a
>> Wii
>> game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> Hi Dark,
>>>
>>> Yes, exactly. that's a point I've been trying to make for quite a
>>> while now. I want some of the mainstrfeam game players to use the term
>>> playable rather than accessible when talking about mainstream games
>>> like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter etc because technically we can
>>> play them with practice and experience, but in no way is the game 100%
>>> accessible to us. I can't pick up Street Fighter IV and access the
>>> menus without my wife's help or at least writing it down in braille so
>>> I can remember what option is which. That's clearly not accessible in
>>> the strictest sense, but is functional if I choose to put extra effort
>>> and work into making it so. Calling something usable or playable by no
>>> means says fully accessible as most people understand it.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/6/12, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi Dan.
>>>>
>>>> While that's absolutely fine and a great creddit to your skills of
>>>> persistance and memorization, I'm afraid that as far as myself and
>>>> audiogames.net are officially concerned, games which require
>>>> memorization
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> a menue or unusual learning of in game sounds, beatemups included, are
>>>> not
>>>> considdered accessible games. This isn't to say they aren't playable or
>>>> that
>>>> people shouldn't try to play them, or that they can't be extremely good
>>>> fun,
>>>> only that as per the guidelines of the site, a game is only
>>>> "accessible"
>>>> and
>>>> will only be included in the db or news when a totally blind person can
>>>> play
>>>> it with approximately the same amount of effort as a sighted person,
>>>> screen
>>>> readers or turning on of a compatibility mode not withstanding
>>>> (provided
>>>> such a mode can be turned on without sighted assistance).
>>>>
>>>> Afterall, theoretically a totally blind person could play absolutely
>>>> any
>>>> game if they spent enough time memorizing every single in game object,
>>>> how
>>>> long to hold the control in required directions etc, thus every single
>>>> game
>>>> ever produced is "playable" it's just that to play them would require
>>>> ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of effort on the part of blind or
>>>> vi
>>>> gamers, though obviously some games, because of their sounds or
>>>> gameplay
>>>> structure are more playable than others.
>>>>
>>>> However, when we say to mainstream companies we want more accessible
>>>> games
>>>> on consoles, we mean "fully" accessible, no need for heavy reading of
>>>> Faqs
>>>> to learn in game text, memorization of menue options or memorization of
>>>> game
>>>> sounds beyond what a normally sighted gamer would do, and all in game
>>>> information just as available to a blind player as to a sighted one.
>>>>
>>>> As I said, this certainly isn't to say that people shouldn't try to
>>>> play
>>>> soul calibur, mk, streetfighter, blazblu or whatever, only that the
>>>> games
>>>> can't really be considdered in the strictest sense "accessible"
>>>>
>>>> Apart from obviously logical desire for true accessibility in games,
>>>> the
>>>> other reason is that if the accessible gaming community starts
>>>> promoting
>>>> games that require memorization and a lot of shenanigans to play,
>>>> mainstream
>>>> companies will turn around and say "accessible games? ---- we already
>>>> make
>>>> them, so bog off, no speaking menues for you!"
>>>>
>>>> Something like this actually happened when I addressed Capcom Uk over
>>>> low
>>>> vision access in platform games, their response was "well if you can
>>>> play
>>>>
>>>> 2D
>>>> platformers, half of the levels of Mega man x 7 and 8 are accessible,
>>>> so
>>>> we've already done what you want"
>>>>
>>>> Of course, a game where I could play "half of the levels" is a pretty
>>>> feeble
>>>> access solution really, ---- when I asked them what I did for the rest
>>>> of
>>>> the game that I couldn't play their response was "get someone else to
>>>> play
>>>> those bits" which was down right offensive!
>>>>
>>>> So in short, I'm quite happy with people discussing how to play
>>>> mainstream
>>>> games, posting recordings or whatever, but as far as officially
>>>> promoting
>>>> the games as accessible is concerned, it's a no no, unless, like
>>>> something
>>>> like sound voyager a totally blind gamer could play them absolutely
>>>> from
>>>> the
>>>> start as easily as a sighted gamer.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this makes sense.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Dark.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
dark
2012-02-06 21:01:47 UTC
Permalink
I agree, that is what has stopped me buying a wii fulstop!

there are in fact a hole bunch of low vision games, ---- starting with the
castlevania series, not to mention mega man battle network, that would be
totally playable from a vision perspective but just have too much radnomly
occurring menues and text that I cannot read.

For instance, Though the mega man zero games have a hole bunch of different
power ups (over 70 in the game), a ful mission mode and even dialogue scenes
where you wander around and talk to different characters, , using a couple
of faqs and a game script I was able to play them, sinse everything was the
same each time you played, anjd all the gameplay was your stadnard mega man
attack enemies which is low vision wise mostly fine.

The later Castlevania games however have just as many items, however they
occur entirely at random! so there is no way for me to tell what item I got,
just because of stupid textual lables.

Ditto with the game secret of mana on the Snes.

Lack of text access in games really has a lot to answer for, even before you
start considdering visual or auditory access to the gameplay elements
themselves.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
dark
2012-02-06 20:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan, fair enough.

perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't appropriate,
say rather such games are playable with not too great an effort.

Beware the grue!

dark.
-----
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 21:04:15 UTC
Permalink
So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is
just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean
that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that
this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting
game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down
if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly, what big
mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable on the
accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though, Street fighter
x tekken will have the character names announced as you scroll over the
character selection screen, so you know who you are picking instead of
finding out who you picked.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Dan, fair enough.
>
> perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
> appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
> effort.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> dark.
> -----
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-06 21:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi clemment.

Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, ---- remember that
debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing.

On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your used
to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them is quite
telling"

A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly go
and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game, where
as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio.

though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get
used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly
disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other
games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a
sighted player.

afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will
need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have to
have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just use
the movelist option in game on the pause menue, ---- then of course there is
the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can instantly see what
a given move is. however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I
don't dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have
that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort of spoken
interface to describe the moves to you and give you their sounds, or some
sound clues to instantly identify what a move was without initial
memorization.

As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually, sinse
however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene disabled and
none disabled people, it would seem that the menue memorization in Bockerano
debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory, sinse the relevant information
that you have to work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it
wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity
to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read printed menues
and understand images displayed only graphically that makes the difference
in effort.

so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we
would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to
disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed.

Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where as
you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to understand
the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a person who is
biologically unable to read printed menues and must use memorization can
expend enough effort to get around this.

You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply
that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and apply
that knolidge to bockerano debuken.

Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for reading
them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless experience of
undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of Japanese would!
eventually give you the same experience of the game as a japanese speaker
would have.

Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good
situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play both
could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with bockerano
debuken if more of the game could be translated, ---- that probably won't be
with mainstream games.

Beware the grue!

dark.





----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
> you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
> Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
> language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it
> is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this
> mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel
> that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a
> fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write
> them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly,
> what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable
> on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though,
> Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced as you
> scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you are
> picking instead of finding out who you picked.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hi Dan, fair enough.
>>
>> perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
>> appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
>> effort.
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> dark.
>> -----
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 21:58:38 UTC
Permalink
You forget that sound memorization is just as important in an audio game as
a mianstream one. The only difference is that audio games will hold your
hand the whole way through and explain each sound even though most of them
are so obvious it isn't very hard to learn. Mainstream games are the same
case, and anyone who has any ability to memorize and distinguish sounds
should not have a problem with them. It's just that mainstream games have
more subtle audio rather than the glaringly obvious sounds in Audio Games.
Also, audio games require memorization of so many different commands, some
would say that playing a fighting game is almost easier, because there is no
need to memorize more than 10-15 keys, combos aside and those are basically
sequences of those keys.
As to Bokurano Daibouken, one may be able to learn Japanese, yes, but that
is actually expending more effort than it would take to learn a sighted
game's menu. Japanese, or any other language for that matter, takes years to
study even to get a basic understanding. the only way you could lear nthe
menus would be to find the vocab associated with it, and reading a list of
menus is far faster, and is what one would do for a mainstream which means
less effort. Also, sighted are the ones faqs are designed for. Fighting game
players, since that's the genre most commonly brought up, will actually
rarely use the command list other than the first time glance at the game.
This is because there is a lot more to memorize such as move properties,
frame data, etc. So in truth, sighted players sometimes actually have more
to memorize... and what do you think people have to do for imported games?
It all happens, so the effort is still the same at least in that regard.
Menus still need to be learned. Whether we can get around print or not, is
the effort not worth it? Are blind people spoiled with everything being
self-voiced and not actually having to learn? Effort is part of the
challenge of the game and should not be looked on as anything but that. And
especially with mainstream games, again, what mainstream developers really
would care? We make up less than 10% of their audience, and most anime
fighting games do have voiced menus.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi clemment.
>
> Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, ---- remember
> that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing.
>
> On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your
> used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them
> is quite telling"
>
> A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly
> go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game,
> where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio.
>
> though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get
> used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly
> disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other
> games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a
> sighted player.
>
> afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will
> need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have
> to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just
> use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, ---- then of course
> there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can
> instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the
> moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good),
> you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom
> introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and
> give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a
> move was without initial memorization.
>
> As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually,
> sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene
> disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue
> memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory,
> sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is
> not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a
> person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather
> than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed
> only graphically that makes the difference in effort.
>
> so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we
> would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to
> disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed.
>
> Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where
> as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to
> understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a
> person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use
> memorization can expend enough effort to get around this.
>
> You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply
> that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and
> apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken.
>
> Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for
> reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless
> experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of
> Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a
> japanese speaker would have.
>
> Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good
> situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play
> both could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with
> bockerano debuken if more of the game could be translated, ---- that
> probably won't be with mainstream games.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> dark.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
>> you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
>> Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
>> language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it
>> is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this
>> mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel
>> that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a
>> fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to
>> write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And
>> lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be
>> reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom.
>> Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced
>> as you scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you
>> are picking instead of finding out who you picked.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>> Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> Hi Dan, fair enough.
>>>
>>> perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
>>> appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
>>> effort.
>>>
>>> Beware the grue!
>>>
>>> dark.
>>> -----
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-06 22:22:06 UTC
Permalink
I'm afraid I do not agree there clemment.

In a fighting game it is not just necessary to memorize ten or 15 sounds,
but also know how those sounds correspond to specific moves.

For instance take Rufus "Messiah kick!" in street fighter 4.

Is it a ground kick or an air kick? what is it's level of attack? where and
when should you block?

It is not simply a matter of memorizing the phrase but of understand the
properties of the move that phrase belongs to, which can only be done with a
faq.

With an audio game, you are told those properties exactly within the game,
or indeed those properties become apparent from the game audio.

For instance, when i first played Q9, I did not! listen to all the creature
sounds, sinse I wanted a surprise. It was however obvious from the position
audio what I was coming to and that these were things that needed hitting.
"messiah kick" however does not reveal it's nature in audio, because the
audio statement of it's name is only an after thought to a sighted player,
they can instantly and without any shadow of doubt see! what nature of move
it is.

This is why the effort betwene a blind person and sighted person are not the
same. In an audio game, sounds are chosen for their representative quality,
up to and including the point that sounds are so representative they may not
be necessary to explain, where as in a mainstream game sound is only a
partial afterthought stuck in for effect.

Then of course, considder that in an audio game when sound memorization is
necessary, the sounds have been chosen! to be distinct enough to memorize.

Look at Mortal Kombat deadly alliance when virtually every character had the
same male or female voice actor, ---- or even games like the soul calibur
ones where some characters are played! by the same voice actor.

then of course, lets not forget those 3d adventure modes, ridiculously menue
heavy character creation and story modes, and all the other fun stuff that
beat em ups come with these days.

Though the arcade mode may be playable, what about the rest?


I'm also afraid you did not understand my point about learning japanese.

i do not despute the fact that learning japanese would be harder than
learning a sighted game menue. I only stated that where as it would be
physically possible! for an English language speaker to become equally
proficient in Japanese to the point that the effort required betwene a
Japanese speaker and an English speaker was the same, this is not true of
Blind vs sighted gamers.

A sighted gamer will always! be able to go through menues more quickly and
easily than a blind person, however good atmemorization you are, simply
because they! don't have to memorize anything whatsoever.

That is why the bockerano debuken case is not really relevant to the
disability arguement of mainstream games.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 06:12:42 UTC
Permalink
All good points, and I do agree. But what you have to realize is that
sighted people need to memorize fighting game move properties just as well
as we do. Why? Because by the time they see that move and process it, their
character is eating a combo. The Massiah kick is a good example, however
that can't be avoided. Faqs are used just as often by sighted gamers,
remember, that's why they're there, to get to the specifics that command
lists never touch on. I can tell you, both from reading faqs and from how
often I play, that the move you're talking about is a ground kick. For the
simple reason that when he does the kick, he never actually leaves the
ground. And this is exactly why I like fighting games so much. We can play
them with the same skill and ability as sighted gamers, because we use the
same resources they do. Yes, you can see the move if you're sighted, but
that doesn't mean much... if you don't know that move hits opponents out of
the air, if you jump towards your opponent you'll still get whacked. In
short, sighted people have to do just as much to memorize move properties,
because you can't focus on the action itself if you're trying to think of
what each move is. That's a ticket to losing, because you need to be able to
know what the move is before you see the animation, which comes just at the
same time the sound cue does. As someone who does martial arts, it's a
valuable lesson which can also apply to fighting games. My teacher always
says, don't think, move! Meaning that as you're going through a sword form,
you should not think, but focus on the form you are performing and let your
body take over, therefore the mind, sword, body as one. Same thing here. So
the shouting out of move names is actually an advantage, especially since so
many of the times the move is shouted out before the motion is complete and
the move connects with your character. This is why fighting games are so
great... because you can't just pick one up and instantly be good. You have
to work, and do the exact same work sighted people have to do to get good.
Because remember. They may see the move, but it doesn't help them if they
don't know the properties of that move. And part of it is outsmarting your
opponent. But that's another story.
And that's part of the problem I find with audio games. Sounds should be
obvious, but not as obvious as some games make them out to be. Sound in an
audio game is so often too obvious it ruins the ambiance. In my personal
opinion, they only need to be distinguishable enough to know what's there.
bo,kura no daibouken is a great example... there's no targetting beeps, and
the enemies all sound like what I would imagine them to be realistically if
they were real. And that's part of the beauty of mainstream games... audio
games give you so much detail, but all the properties are explained to
you... there's no need to figure anything out. Mainstream games you honestly
have to work to figure out the ins and outs. And I disagree with sound being
an afterthought... street fighter has always had one sound for every single
attack. You know that there are three kicks and three punches. Each of those
sound radically different. Fireballs sound different depending on who throws
them. An uppercut with flames sounds different than one without. I just
don't see why if some mainstream blind gamers can figure them out, why
others can't. The ability to do it is there, and I've won small tournaments
in both street Fighter and MK 9. Nothing major, just things my friends and I
set up. How do I beat them? By outsmarting them... fightin games are less
about the mechanics than most people think. The menus don't matter. It's the
controls themselves, your character, and how much screwing with the
opponent's head you can do. And lastly, adventure modes and the like should
not be the main focus of a fighting game... the main focus is on the
fighting, preferably against human opponents. Not to say single player
content isn't nice. Very few fighting games have menu-driven story modes.
The only ones that do are usually ones that also suffer from stiff
mechanics. SC 3, and all the mk games n the ps2 are all good examples. MK 9
finds a nice balance, but Blazblue should be the one that every fighting
game should try and emulate.
I appologize about my misinterpretation about yur point with Japanese. True,
it's impossible for a blind gamer to learn how to read print just to
navigate menus. However, have you considered import games? Tons of people
import them from Japan, and most of us don't speak Japanese. So when it
comes to that, sighted gamers are in the same positions as we are... and
this is why I love import games. Because faqs for them always have menu
translations!
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> I'm afraid I do not agree there clemment.
>
> In a fighting game it is not just necessary to memorize ten or 15 sounds,
> but also know how those sounds correspond to specific moves.
>
> For instance take Rufus "Messiah kick!" in street fighter 4.
>
> Is it a ground kick or an air kick? what is it's level of attack? where
> and when should you block?
>
> It is not simply a matter of memorizing the phrase but of understand the
> properties of the move that phrase belongs to, which can only be done with
> a faq.
>
> With an audio game, you are told those properties exactly within the game,
> or indeed those properties become apparent from the game audio.
>
> For instance, when i first played Q9, I did not! listen to all the
> creature sounds, sinse I wanted a surprise. It was however obvious from
> the position audio what I was coming to and that these were things that
> needed hitting. "messiah kick" however does not reveal it's nature in
> audio, because the audio statement of it's name is only an after thought
> to a sighted player, they can instantly and without any shadow of doubt
> see! what nature of move it is.
>
> This is why the effort betwene a blind person and sighted person are not
> the same. In an audio game, sounds are chosen for their representative
> quality, up to and including the point that sounds are so representative
> they may not be necessary to explain, where as in a mainstream game sound
> is only a partial afterthought stuck in for effect.
>
> Then of course, considder that in an audio game when sound memorization is
> necessary, the sounds have been chosen! to be distinct enough to memorize.
>
> Look at Mortal Kombat deadly alliance when virtually every character had
> the same male or female voice actor, ---- or even games like the soul
> calibur ones where some characters are played! by the same voice actor.
>
> then of course, lets not forget those 3d adventure modes, ridiculously
> menue heavy character creation and story modes, and all the other fun
> stuff that beat em ups come with these days.
>
> Though the arcade mode may be playable, what about the rest?
>
>
> I'm also afraid you did not understand my point about learning japanese.
>
> i do not despute the fact that learning japanese would be harder than
> learning a sighted game menue. I only stated that where as it would be
> physically possible! for an English language speaker to become equally
> proficient in Japanese to the point that the effort required betwene a
> Japanese speaker and an English speaker was the same, this is not true of
> Blind vs sighted gamers.
>
> A sighted gamer will always! be able to go through menues more quickly and
> easily than a blind person, however good atmemorization you are, simply
> because they! don't have to memorize anything whatsoever.
>
> That is why the bockerano debuken case is not really relevant to the
> disability arguement of mainstream games.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 08:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi Clemment.

I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd heard
about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying them
without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being
identical to a blind person learning it's sound.

When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's punch
in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon.

It would be pretty obvious to me if I'd got the timing for the first punch
wrong, sinse I'd see! that the opponent was too far away or too close. I'd
be able to adjust my timing the next time I tried the combo, punch slightly
earlier or later.

This is because as you've said yourself, fighting games are not simply
boppit style sequences of pressing buttons in a streight out rythm, but
pressing buttons in accordance with the relative position of the two
opponents on screen and what is happening with the engine, and it is easier
access to that positional data, as well as knowing fairly instantly by
looking what a move is supposed to do that makes the difference.

yes, a sighted person still needs to practice when! a given move should be
used, however this practice is made far easier by the fact that they have
far more information to work with about the move itself when used, the
relative positions of the characters etc.

This is where audio games differ from mainstream games. in an audio game,
all! in game information is presented only in an audio, and therefore
accessible medium. You stil have to work to play the game, learn it's ins
and outs etc, however all the information you need is there! in the game,
the rest is practice.

This is where mainstream games are lacking, sinse the information needed to
play them is essentially visual in nature, and though sound can provide a
guide to that information, it is at most a guide only, and not a true
representation of that information.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 19:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Funny, because I find those combos quite easy to do. While I agree that the
sound gives you less information that lets you keep track of your opponent,
you have to do that in your head. If I start a match, I keep in mind exactly
what movements I make and approximately how far I am from the opponent. I
very rarely do jump-in cmbos, but one of my favorites which always works is
with one of the SF 4 AE characters, Yun. It's a jumping dive kick, which if
not blocked is followed up with two crouching light kicks, a crouching jab,
a standing medium punch followed by a lunge punch. It always works, and it's
because I can adequately orientate myself and keep my mind focussed on where
I am on the screen. Once I've done that, move properties become
second-nature. You learn not to combo unless you're sure that's going to
hit, and if I'm going to do a combo, I can miss the first punch, but sighted
people do that as well... it's no loss, as long as I don't continue the
combo or try to. I know many people who would keep going with the sequence,
which just gives me time to attack them from a distance. A lot of blind
people tend to do that, and I think that's the solution to what your problem
seems to be... if you miss the first punch, be smart about it and block.
Wait til you're sure you can hit an opponent. This is where your mobility
skills can come in handy, since although you aren't walking yourself, you
can use that and calculate what movement options both characters are making.
Hear your opponent trying to jump in at you, maybe start a combo? Uppercut
them out of the air. If you're opponent is dashing in towards you, use a
throw and get yourself out of that corner or you're dead. These are basic
concepts that sighted people use all the time, and while there is more
information to be had if you're sighted, that information is needless... I
can figure that out all in my head. If I watch an SSF 4 match online from
youtube, I can commentate what is going on, almost perfectly because I know
what they're doing based on what I hear. That's how detailed modern fighting
games are.
As to audio games... yes, the sounds are very clear. However, as I keep
saying, they're almost too clear. And most audo games have very few ins and
outs to learn... which is the problem. Most of them are so simple, and
there's nothing to figure out on your own because the game explains
everything to you. Take something like judgement day. In modern mainstream
scrolling shooters like time crisis 4, 1942 Joint Strike, the enemy
properties are not explained... and the way one tells is by harsh experience
based on how the enemy looks. The same should be the case... the fact that
helicopters take more hits should be left for the player to find out as a
mainstream game would do it. Or, when the game is released, that is what an
Faq would be good for, and that's precisely why there are no walkthroughs
for most audio games.. because they're so simple that one really doesn't
need one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Clemment.
>
> I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd
> heard about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying
> them without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being
> identical to a blind person learning it's sound.
>
> When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's
> punch in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon.
>
> It would be pretty obvious to me if I'd got the timing for the first punch
> wrong, sinse I'd see! that the opponent was too far away or too close. I'd
> be able to adjust my timing the next time I tried the combo, punch
> slightly earlier or later.
>
> This is because as you've said yourself, fighting games are not simply
> boppit style sequences of pressing buttons in a streight out rythm, but
> pressing buttons in accordance with the relative position of the two
> opponents on screen and what is happening with the engine, and it is
> easier access to that positional data, as well as knowing fairly instantly
> by looking what a move is supposed to do that makes the difference.
>
> yes, a sighted person still needs to practice when! a given move should be
> used, however this practice is made far easier by the fact that they have
> far more information to work with about the move itself when used, the
> relative positions of the characters etc.
>
> This is where audio games differ from mainstream games. in an audio game,
> all! in game information is presented only in an audio, and therefore
> accessible medium. You stil have to work to play the game, learn it's ins
> and outs etc, however all the information you need is there! in the game,
> the rest is practice.
>
> This is where mainstream games are lacking, sinse the information needed
> to play them is essentially visual in nature, and though sound can provide
> a guide to that information, it is at most a guide only, and not a true
> representation of that information.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 20:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi clemment.

On the issue of information and practice, I'm afraid you've missed my point
rather.

My point is not that a blind person cannot! learn to do combos, get a
feeling for distance etc, quite obviously people can. it is that lacking the
visual information which is available on screen to sighted game players,
this initial learning and acquisition of the skills is much harder and takes
more effort, simply! because a blind person has far less access to the
required information.

a sighted player for instance would be very unlikely to cary on with the
movements of a combo if they saw that the opponent was not close enough to
be hit.

a sighted player could instantly see when they were in the corner of a
stage, and know that they had to escape or risk a corner trap, even if
they'd never played that game before in their life, simply because of how
the screen scrolls and where the edge of the stage was.

while I don't doubt the work you've put in on beat em ups or the skills
you've acquired, I'm afraid I am less sure of your ability to judge the
relative ease of playing a game with a beat em up with! vision as opposed to
without it, simply because it concerns a lot of information which you have
not had direct experiencial access to.

As I said, this is not a cryticism of your skills at the games or the work
that you've done, sinse you've only ever had the one experience and not the
other.

as someone who plays from a low vision perspective, I perhaps do have a
little more insite here, though even I imagine there are stil a great many
factors about the visual experience of games I do not get myself.

as to audio games, the simplicity factor is partly as we have said on list
before, due to the resources that have been spent on creating the games, and
indeed should the same mega millions ever be spent on developing an audio
game that would probably not apply, just as pc indi graphical games are far
simpler than their mainstream counterparts.

The other reason though is that most audio games are what I have called in
the past "reaction based" rather than "judgement based"

ie, they simply rely upon you getting a certain sequence of events into your
head and learning to react in one, and only one correct way to those events
as soon as possible.

here a ship, center it blow it up! rince and repeat.

"judgement based" games, such as most graphical games are, require you to
actually learn about, experience and judge a set of factors and decide from
a variety of actions which is the best thing to do in a given situation.

what we need are audio games that follow the second model.

I am however pleased to say that games like Swamp, castaways, time of
conflict, the in developement tactical battle and even perilous hearts with
it's judgement of animal distance and weapon selection deffinately seem to
be heading that way, even if games in the past like superliam have not.
Beware the greu!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 21:11:17 UTC
Permalink
No no, I do get your point. What I was merely pointing out is that it isn't
nearly as hard as you seem to think it is. This isn't just all based on
assumptions, this is based on what I hear from sighted players who I've
talked to, ones who've accepted that I'm blind and still am a halfway decent
player, and who I've discussed this issue with over and over again. You;d be
surprised how many sighted people will constantly just stand there and mash
out uppercuts which don't hit. And being in a corner is something anyone can
figure out if they're keeping track of where the opponent is in relation to
themselves and what the opponent is doing. If my opponent keeps trying to
hit me with moves like fireballs that keep me in the same place I can also
instantly tell that I'm in a corner. It's things like that which makes
visual information unnecessary, and that's what I've heard from a few
high-level players who I talk to.
as to the work I put in. It honestly is not all that much. Despite playing
mainstream games growing up, I took about a 5 year break from them and then
seriously gotten back into them. They weren't very hard to pick up despite
the fact that I forgot completely how to play them, since when I was younger
all I did was more or less button mash and didn't pay attention to sound
detail at all.
I think we've had the discussion about reaction vs. Judgement based games
before. Though I have to disagree about mainstream indi games being simpler
than their bigger industrially produced counterparts... I played an indi
game from Japan recently and it was a fighting game on the level of street
fighter 3 third strike, which was produced by Capcom... and there are plenty
of indi games on xbox live which are quite complex. Although, as you said,
games like swamp do require some thinking, which is why I like them. But the
fact is for most games there are just no ins and outs to work with. And
however limitted resources you have, design is what it comes down to. I have
several designs that I would like to put into fruition, and programming is
the only thing stopping me. I have sounds that I would like to use, a story,
etc. The only thing I lack is the ability to program said ideas.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi clemment.
>
> On the issue of information and practice, I'm afraid you've missed my
> point rather.
>
> My point is not that a blind person cannot! learn to do combos, get a
> feeling for distance etc, quite obviously people can. it is that lacking
> the visual information which is available on screen to sighted game
> players, this initial learning and acquisition of the skills is much
> harder and takes more effort, simply! because a blind person has far less
> access to the required information.
>
> a sighted player for instance would be very unlikely to cary on with the
> movements of a combo if they saw that the opponent was not close enough to
> be hit.
>
> a sighted player could instantly see when they were in the corner of a
> stage, and know that they had to escape or risk a corner trap, even if
> they'd never played that game before in their life, simply because of how
> the screen scrolls and where the edge of the stage was.
>
> while I don't doubt the work you've put in on beat em ups or the skills
> you've acquired, I'm afraid I am less sure of your ability to judge the
> relative ease of playing a game with a beat em up with! vision as opposed
> to without it, simply because it concerns a lot of information which you
> have not had direct experiencial access to.
>
> As I said, this is not a cryticism of your skills at the games or the work
> that you've done, sinse you've only ever had the one experience and not
> the other.
>
> as someone who plays from a low vision perspective, I perhaps do have a
> little more insite here, though even I imagine there are stil a great many
> factors about the visual experience of games I do not get myself.
>
> as to audio games, the simplicity factor is partly as we have said on list
> before, due to the resources that have been spent on creating the games,
> and indeed should the same mega millions ever be spent on developing an
> audio game that would probably not apply, just as pc indi graphical games
> are far simpler than their mainstream counterparts.
>
> The other reason though is that most audio games are what I have called in
> the past "reaction based" rather than "judgement based"
>
> ie, they simply rely upon you getting a certain sequence of events into
> your head and learning to react in one, and only one correct way to those
> events as soon as possible.
>
> here a ship, center it blow it up! rince and repeat.
>
> "judgement based" games, such as most graphical games are, require you to
> actually learn about, experience and judge a set of factors and decide
> from a variety of actions which is the best thing to do in a given
> situation.
>
> what we need are audio games that follow the second model.
>
> I am however pleased to say that games like Swamp, castaways, time of
> conflict, the in developement tactical battle and even perilous hearts
> with it's judgement of animal distance and weapon selection deffinately
> seem to be heading that way, even if games in the past like superliam have
> not.
> Beware the greu!
>
> Dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 21:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi clemment.
It might be that you have unusual spacial abilities, but I'm afraid I still
disagree on the inequities of information. Obviously, it's something you can
practice and improve at to the point where it is less trouble, but it is the
fact that it's any trouble at all! that makes the difference to acess
here, ---- and that is of course not counting things like learning menues,
looking up and reading faqs to tell you the moves in a new game and the text
of combos etc.

As to game design you are right up to a point, but I'd also suggest that in
matters like sound complexity (which was one you mentioned), resources make
a huge difference.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 21:27:17 UTC
Permalink
But that's just it... it isn't any trouble. And you make it sound like we're
the only ones who read faqs when in fact, we aren't. Sighted gamers, once
again, do as much looking up as we do... this is why faqs are there. Command
lists only give special moves and supers, they do not list combos or
anything like that. Though I guess the trouble thing is a personal
approach... I have no trouble at all with these games, and menus aren't a
big deal... honest answer? I don't know half the menus of the games I
play... I just need to memorize the options that I use. Though I will agree
that sound complexity in an audio game does take resources.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi clemment.
> It might be that you have unusual spacial abilities, but I'm afraid I
> still disagree on the inequities of information. Obviously, it's something
> you can practice and improve at to the point where it is less trouble, but
> it is the fact that it's any trouble at all! that makes the difference to
> acess here, ---- and that is of course not counting things like learning
> menues, looking up and reading faqs to tell you the moves in a new game
> and the text of combos etc.
>
> As to game design you are right up to a point, but I'd also suggest that
> in matters like sound complexity (which was one you mentioned), resources
> make a huge difference.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 21:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Clemment.

I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted
people do not use faqs.
i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user,
from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring a
certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same amount
of time and trouble taken by a blind user.

this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users
better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene
the groups.

for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you can
do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read them.

A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus
with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A
sighted user has all that information instantly available.

this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same
amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind user
as a sighted user.

What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at
faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point.

Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by
sound.

Bewre the grue!
#dark.
Shadow Dragon
2012-02-07 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Not always. In fact, not at all in most of the older games. In older games
that's exactly why there were FAQ's, because you either had to buy a
separate strategy guide in addition to the game, or do a ton of
experimentation. In the newer games they often include movelists, but they
aren't always complete and they don't tell you how to string together some
combos, or use juggling, etc. There's only one part of fighting games I
think sighted people have better luck with than we do, and that's tutorials,
where they show you how to do something and you're expected to repeat it
exactly. Usually we can't do those unless the tutorial is voiced, but the
tutorial usually isn't necessary either, though you might get a trophy or
XBox achievement for completing it. Either way I still agree with clement,
the only reason blind and sighted people in general have differing levels of
proficiency in fighting games is because a lot of blind people refuse to
even try them given preconceptions like this one. I've played and beaten
many fighting games, more than I care to count, and I find them just as easy
to pick up and play as most audiogames, if not easier in some cases, like
bokurano daiboukenn. Though some of that was due to lack of translation. And
I'm not even as into those types of games as some of the blind gamers.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 02:37 PM
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!

> Hi Clemment.
>
> I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted
> people do not use faqs.
> i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user,
> from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring
> a certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same
> amount of time and trouble taken by a blind user.
>
> this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users
> better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene
> the groups.
>
> for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you
> can do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read
> them.
>
> A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus
> with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A
> sighted user has all that information instantly available.
>
> this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same
> amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind
> user as a sighted user.
>
> What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at
> faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point.
>
> Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by
> sound.
>
> Bewre the grue!
> #dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 22:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Sorry again forthe double post, but I do have to agree that tutorials, while
possibly an issue, aren't really necessary... and as to having no idea
what's going on, in most fighting games... that isn't a problem when the
name of the move is being shouted so loud. Gotta love anime for that. hahaha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shadow Dragon" <elementalultima at hotmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Not always. In fact, not at all in most of the older games. In older games
> that's exactly why there were FAQ's, because you either had to buy a
> separate strategy guide in addition to the game, or do a ton of
> experimentation. In the newer games they often include movelists, but they
> aren't always complete and they don't tell you how to string together some
> combos, or use juggling, etc. There's only one part of fighting games I
> think sighted people have better luck with than we do, and that's
> tutorials, where they show you how to do something and you're expected to
> repeat it exactly. Usually we can't do those unless the tutorial is
> voiced, but the tutorial usually isn't necessary either, though you might
> get a trophy or XBox achievement for completing it. Either way I still
> agree with clement, the only reason blind and sighted people in general
> have differing levels of proficiency in fighting games is because a lot of
> blind people refuse to even try them given preconceptions like this one.
> I've played and beaten many fighting games, more than I care to count, and
> I find them just as easy to pick up and play as most audiogames, if not
> easier in some cases, like bokurano daiboukenn. Though some of that was
> due to lack of translation. And I'm not even as into those types of games
> as some of the blind gamers.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
dark
2012-02-07 22:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

I'm afraid we are probably at an empass here.

I myself just feel that however good you are, the larning curve is just far
steeper for a blind person that a sighted person, simply because you lack
all relevant information, and until! that information is present in the
game, from the company who make it, not in a faq, then a game won't count as
accessible, --- playable yes, maybe even playable without too much trouble,
but not accessible the way a game you can play with your screen reader is
accessible.

that is why games like Soul Calibur won't be getting pages on audiogames.net
unless they have at least speaking menues, speaking movelists and tutorials,
and possibly even some set of sound effects to indicate as much about
character position in sound as a sighted player gets in graphics.
as I said this isn't to say it can't! be done, only that it's far more
trouble.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 22:31:02 UTC
Permalink
I was just going to say... this discussion has probably run its course. As
friends must do, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
But before we wrap up... here's my question. If you were to make a fighting
game that was purely audio-based, what would you add? Besides speaking menus
and having more than the usual things voiced, that is? How would you add
sounds detail to a game to help the totally blind, but make it subtle enough
not to ruin the atmosphere of a game?
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi.
>
> I'm afraid we are probably at an empass here.
>
> I myself just feel that however good you are, the larning curve is just
> far steeper for a blind person that a sighted person, simply because you
> lack all relevant information, and until! that information is present in
> the game, from the company who make it, not in a faq, then a game won't
> count as accessible, --- playable yes, maybe even playable without too
> much trouble, but not accessible the way a game you can play with your
> screen reader is accessible.
>
> that is why games like Soul Calibur won't be getting pages on
> audiogames.net unless they have at least speaking menues, speaking
> movelists and tutorials, and possibly even some set of sound effects to
> indicate as much about character position in sound as a sighted player
> gets in graphics.
> as I said this isn't to say it can't! be done, only that it's far more
> trouble.
>
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 23:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Agreed Clemment, it's been an interesting discussion.

Now, moving on, other than obviously voiced text for movelists, menues,
tutorials etc, I'd add the following:

1: positional sterrio audio that alters according to the opponent's relative
position to the player, not the relative position of the two characters on a
larger sterrio field.

what I mean here is that at the moment, if both of your characters are on
the left of the arena, you here all their sounds in the left, even if your
opponent comes relatively closer to you. By having the sterrio sounds
related not to the overall position of the players but the relative position
of your opponent, (rather the way objects in 2D audio games work), you could
then be able to judge distance and position far more exactly.

2: different audio versions of the same move.

currently, a light, medium or fierce special has the same sound. If however
pitch alteration or some sort of similar indication was added to that sound,
you could tell which "hadoken" was being used on you. Also needless to say,
the sounds for projectile moves would need to continue altering in relative
horizontal sterrio position until they were off the screen, rather than you
just getting a sound to indicate they'd been launched and having to judge.

this would make such things as knockbacks into projectiles, or walking
behind a projectile to attack the opponent far easier to judge.

3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
position of a move.

currently, though there are jump sounds and by listening to the jump of an
opponent you can tell when he/she is in the air and when in the arc of that
jump he/she launches a move, there is no way to tell where that move is
aimed to hit.

for instance, Sagat and Vega used to have a very nasty 30 digree heavy kick
in the air, that could be launched from a jump, but hit fairly deep into
your opponent's sprite, ---- so deep in fact sometimes it could require a
low block rather than a high one.

there is no way in audio of telling the precise targit of such a move. The
same goes for distinguishing sweeps from crouching upwards kicks, uppercuts
from low elbow jabs etc.

therefore, in addition to the voice sample for the sound of the hit, i'd
suggest the accompanying wind sound be played at different pitches to
indicate the vertical targit of the blow. The same could be used to indicate
the path of a spinning or arcing special such as sumo torpedo, cannon ball
spin or even just a slide attack, ---- indeed a series of altered wind
sounds could tell you precisely where your opponent was vertically during
the arcing move.

4: Ducking sound/stand up .

Again like the jumping sound really. Once ducking you wouldn't need it to be
constant, but just an indication that now your oponent was A, a smaller
targit and B, probably would be in a good position to counter high or arial
attacks. no need for something constant, just a hmmm! would do, with a
similar specific double feet tap on floor sound for standing.

5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.

Obviously some games have or do not have footsteps, but in an audio fighting
game they'd need to be standard, so you could tell your opponents relative
distance to you even when she/he wasn't actually doing any moves or jumping,
with the relative positional audio mentioned earlier this would be more than
enough.

At the start of the match, indicate distance by horizontally positioning the
taunts of both characters in the relative audio space.

6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.

same as above really, some games do it, some don't, but it would need to be
there to give you the information of when your opponent was on the ground
and whe he/she got up. Obviously the standing sound could be the same as for
standing from a crouch.

7: hit against corner sound.

No need for a constant sound in the corner, indeed that could be quite
destracting, but some sound when the opponent's body strikes the corner
would be useful, twang of ring ropes, hit against a wall, something like
that.

9: description of moves.

in the movelist, in addition to voicing the buttons needed for the move, a
description would need to be there too, sinse the system i've outlined,
though it could tell you the type, direction, hit area and speed of any
move, couldn't tell you whether it's a punch or a kick, or a headbut come to
that! you could probably play quite adequately without such information, but
A, it's good to know, and B, it would probably help you formulate logical
combos.

9: pre match sequence playing stage ambience and/or description.

Ambient sounds during the game would probably be destracting, so probably it
would be best during the fight to keep just the fight sounds for characters
and music.

however, a sequence at the start with ambience sounds and some sort of audio
stage description to let you know whether you were on a beach, in a night
club, in som e evil sorcerer's thrown room etc.

some of the mortal Kombat games even had such descriptions in text on the
stage select screen for vs battles, but obviously it would need to be
accessible within the game.

10: pre match character descriptions of your opponents.

pretty much the same as the above really. more than a story based cutscene
or dialogue, a description of what your opponent wears, what he/she looks
like, maybe some brief remarks about fighting style and stance etc.

obviously here I was primarily thinking in purely 2D terms of games like
streetfighter, Blazblu Marvel vs capcom etc. While all of this would also
apply to a 3d (or rather 2.5 D as it's sometimes called), game like soul
calibur or tekken, you'd also need sounds to indicate the 180 degree status
of moves, whether they were circular or hit around your opponent, where your
opponent was vertically as well as horizontally etc.

that likely would be possible, but it'd probably require a few more complex
ideas for sound representation that I can't really think of at the moment,
and this post is more than long enough.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-08 06:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting list...
but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one about
projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already do the
position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they should be
extended, I think that the time between the launch of a projectile and its
connection to either the character or the character's blocking is frankly
enough to tell the distance between one character and the other. As to your
other comments...
3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
position of a move.
This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would be
no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle without
being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds. that would
detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if you were to
add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them for players to
react in time, which would slow down the game at best, since you would have
to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not what fighting games are
about. Rather, fighting games are about reactions, but more about quick
reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and with audio cues, I just can't see how
it would be possible to keep that fast, intense pace.
4: Ducking sound/stand up .
Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't hit
crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the only
reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping in
towards them.
5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also judge
distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The reason I
mention all this is because I don't want too much audio detail... it'd be
confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and strategize at the
same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are necessary and the few
more that lend atmosphere.
6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
7: hit against corner sound.
Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be put
in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge of the
screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just have them
stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
8: description of moves.
Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list is
just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think we
should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment which is
description of characters which I also think should be in the docs.
As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as long
as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of stage
description could be on the screen because it would have to sound natural,
and any description that I can come up with at least sounds pretty dull in a
short form. lol
dark
2012-02-08 08:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi clemment.

As I said, currently I just am not convinced you get enough information
about what moves are happening. yes, you can learn them, but you couldn't
instantly identify them.

a vertical position sound would not be exact, but would at least let you
know where a move was hitting, and thus give you a better idea what was
going on.

As for it being too complex, well I really don't see the problem there. you
already have different hit soundds in streeetfighter for the use of light,
medium, and heavy attacks, this would just be a question of using a similar
system for attacks pointed at the head, abdoman, or legs of your character.
Of course it wouldn't be an exact system, but fighting isn't an exact
science, it would however let you know where to block.

there would also bbe no need to slow it down either.

As to positional audio, as I said from what I've noticed thus far the
positional audio in the game is absolute, not relative.

if you and the opponent are both on the left of the arena, you here both!
sets of sounds to the left, not yours in the center and your opponents to
the left relative to his/her position.

My suggestions were made to give a blind player as much access to
information during a match of a game they'd never played before as a sighted
player, and were meant with that aime.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting
> list... but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one
> about projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already
> do the position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they should
> be extended, I think that the time between the launch of a projectile and
> its connection to either the character or the character's blocking is
> frankly enough to tell the distance between one character and the other.
> As to your other comments...
> 3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
> position of a move.
> This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would
> be no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle
> without being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds.
> that would detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if
> you were to add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them
> for players to react in time, which would slow down the game at best,
> since you would have to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not
> what fighting games are about. Rather, fighting games are about reactions,
> but more about quick reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and with audio
> cues, I just can't see how it would be possible to keep that fast, intense
> pace.
> 4: Ducking sound/stand up .
> Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
> would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
> idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't
> hit crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the
> only reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping in
> towards them.
> 5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
> Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also
> judge distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The reason
> I mention all this is because I don't want too much audio detail... it'd
> be confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and strategize at
> the same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are necessary and
> the few more that lend atmosphere.
> 6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
> Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
> Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
> 7: hit against corner sound.
> Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be put
> in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge of the
> screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just have them
> stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
> 8: description of moves.
> Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list
> is just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think we
> should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment which
> is description of characters which I also think should be in the docs.
> As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
> themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as
> long as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of
> stage description could be on the screen because it would have to sound
> natural, and any description that I can come up with at least sounds
> pretty dull in a short form. lol
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Ron Kolesar
2012-02-08 13:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Thank you D.
When ever I join a project with sighted people, I suggest that they do the
following to get a taste of how a blind person has to see either through
their fingertips and or ears.
Take a look at your monitors with your normal eyes.
Then close your eyes and ask yourself the following question.
I just saw that with my normal eye sighte.
How do I get the same information across to someone who has to see by using
their ears and or fingertips?
Which this is a valid question.
I in turn answer the question like this.
It is simple.
Just add a little extra details to your explanations.
Yes for the computer and what we do with the pc.
Yes most of the time we do use our ears to read the screens and to see what
is around us in the games.
So we do need the extra sounds to represent the different objectives and or
moves and enmenys within a game.
The sighted just don't think of how do do something in any different ways
unless they can use their eyes.
Even we who were lucky enough to have some sighte while growing up.
We're all born with our eyes for the most part and we all use them if and
when we can.
When we can't.
We have to learn how to see in other ways that yes we as a indpendant blidn
person takes for granted.
I've always said the following.
roughly 98 to 99 percent of the normal public needs to be educated.
Why is this?
Because if they don't work with someone, who has a friend or love one who
has a visual problem.
They just don't know what we need and how we can get a long just like anyone
else.
It is our job to help them to be educated just like when we needed to be
educated when we all were going through rehab and learning about the NLS
program and so on.
So let's continue to educate the sighted.
Pretty much some of the technology that we only originally had to use, the
sighted are getting lazy and now also are starting to use speech output
devices as well.
Just yesterday at Physical Theropy I created a monster by showing the
perkins and brailling alphabet cards.
So take that extra step next time and try to show the general public that
yes we can get the same info that you need, we just do the same things in a
different way.
That's my two cents on this subject.
Ron and current Leader Dog who states " A service dog beats a long white
cane paws down any day of the week".


-----Original Message-----
From: dark
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:10 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hi clemment.

As I said, currently I just am not convinced you get enough information
about what moves are happening. yes, you can learn them, but you couldn't
instantly identify them.

a vertical position sound would not be exact, but would at least let you
know where a move was hitting, and thus give you a better idea what was
going on.

As for it being too complex, well I really don't see the problem there. you
already have different hit soundds in streeetfighter for the use of light,
medium, and heavy attacks, this would just be a question of using a similar
system for attacks pointed at the head, abdoman, or legs of your character.
Of course it wouldn't be an exact system, but fighting isn't an exact
science, it would however let you know where to block.

there would also bbe no need to slow it down either.

As to positional audio, as I said from what I've noticed thus far the
positional audio in the game is absolute, not relative.

if you and the opponent are both on the left of the arena, you here both!
sets of sounds to the left, not yours in the center and your opponents to
the left relative to his/her position.

My suggestions were made to give a blind player as much access to
information during a match of a game they'd never played before as a sighted
player, and were meant with that aime.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting
> list... but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one
> about projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already
> do the position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they should
> be extended, I think that the time between the launch of a projectile and
> its connection to either the character or the character's blocking is
> frankly enough to tell the distance between one character and the other.
> As to your other comments...
> 3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
> position of a move.
> This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would
> be no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle
> without being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds.
> that would detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if
> you were to add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them
> for players to react in time, which would slow down the game at best,
> since you would have to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not
> what fighting games are about. Rather, fighting games are about reactions,
> but more about quick reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and with audio
> cues, I just can't see how it would be possible to keep that fast, intense
> pace.
> 4: Ducking sound/stand up .
> Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
> would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
> idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't
> hit crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the
> only reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping in
> towards them.
> 5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
> Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also
> judge distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The reason
> I mention all this is because I don't want too much audio detail... it'd
> be confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and strategize at
> the same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are necessary and
> the few more that lend atmosphere.
> 6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
> Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
> Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
> 7: hit against corner sound.
> Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be put
> in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge of the
> screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just have them
> stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
> 8: description of moves.
> Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list
> is just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think we
> should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment which
> is description of characters which I also think should be in the docs.
> As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
> themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as
> long as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of
> stage description could be on the screen because it would have to sound
> natural, and any description that I can come up with at least sounds
> pretty dull in a short form. lol
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.

Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
hands down any day of the week."
dark
2012-02-08 13:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Apart from the fact I'm afraid I have no idea what nls is, I do agree.

86 percent of information people take in with all working senses in visual.
In my case, it's probably more like 50 or 40 percent. When converting that
information into an audio form, lots of adaptation is necessary, as well as
educating people to the fact that you can! indeed use audio for information
at all.

That's still why I'm of the belief that no game is accessible unles it
offers equal information content visually and in audio.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Kolesar" <kolesar16417 at roadrunner.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Thank you D.
> When ever I join a project with sighted people, I suggest that they do the
> following to get a taste of how a blind person has to see either through
> their fingertips and or ears.
> Take a look at your monitors with your normal eyes.
> Then close your eyes and ask yourself the following question.
> I just saw that with my normal eye sighte.
> How do I get the same information across to someone who has to see by
> using their ears and or fingertips?
> Which this is a valid question.
> I in turn answer the question like this.
> It is simple.
> Just add a little extra details to your explanations.
> Yes for the computer and what we do with the pc.
> Yes most of the time we do use our ears to read the screens and to see
> what is around us in the games.
> So we do need the extra sounds to represent the different objectives and
> or moves and enmenys within a game.
> The sighted just don't think of how do do something in any different ways
> unless they can use their eyes.
> Even we who were lucky enough to have some sighte while growing up.
> We're all born with our eyes for the most part and we all use them if and
> when we can.
> When we can't.
> We have to learn how to see in other ways that yes we as a indpendant
> blidn person takes for granted.
> I've always said the following.
> roughly 98 to 99 percent of the normal public needs to be educated.
> Why is this?
> Because if they don't work with someone, who has a friend or love one who
> has a visual problem.
> They just don't know what we need and how we can get a long just like
> anyone else.
> It is our job to help them to be educated just like when we needed to be
> educated when we all were going through rehab and learning about the NLS
> program and so on.
> So let's continue to educate the sighted.
> Pretty much some of the technology that we only originally had to use, the
> sighted are getting lazy and now also are starting to use speech output
> devices as well.
> Just yesterday at Physical Theropy I created a monster by showing the
> perkins and brailling alphabet cards.
> So take that extra step next time and try to show the general public that
> yes we can get the same info that you need, we just do the same things in
> a different way.
> That's my two cents on this subject.
> Ron and current Leader Dog who states " A service dog beats a long white
> cane paws down any day of the week".
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dark
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:10 AM
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
> was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
> Hi clemment.
>
> As I said, currently I just am not convinced you get enough information
> about what moves are happening. yes, you can learn them, but you couldn't
> instantly identify them.
>
> a vertical position sound would not be exact, but would at least let you
> know where a move was hitting, and thus give you a better idea what was
> going on.
>
> As for it being too complex, well I really don't see the problem there.
> you
> already have different hit soundds in streeetfighter for the use of light,
> medium, and heavy attacks, this would just be a question of using a
> similar
> system for attacks pointed at the head, abdoman, or legs of your
> character.
> Of course it wouldn't be an exact system, but fighting isn't an exact
> science, it would however let you know where to block.
>
> there would also bbe no need to slow it down either.
>
> As to positional audio, as I said from what I've noticed thus far the
> positional audio in the game is absolute, not relative.
>
> if you and the opponent are both on the left of the arena, you here both!
> sets of sounds to the left, not yours in the center and your opponents to
> the left relative to his/her position.
>
> My suggestions were made to give a blind player as much access to
> information during a match of a game they'd never played before as a
> sighted
> player, and were meant with that aime.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
> was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting
>> list... but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one
>> about projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already
>> do the position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they
>> should be extended, I think that the time between the launch of a
>> projectile and its connection to either the character or the character's
>> blocking is frankly enough to tell the distance between one character and
>> the other. As to your other comments...
>> 3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
>> position of a move.
>> This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would
>> be no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle
>> without being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds.
>> that would detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if
>> you were to add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them
>> for players to react in time, which would slow down the game at best,
>> since you would have to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not
>> what fighting games are about. Rather, fighting games are about
>> reactions, but more about quick reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and
>> with audio cues, I just can't see how it would be possible to keep that
>> fast, intense pace.
>> 4: Ducking sound/stand up .
>> Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
>> would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
>> idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't
>> hit crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the
>> only reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping
>> in towards them.
>> 5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
>> Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also
>> judge distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The
>> reason I mention all this is because I don't want too much audio
>> detail... it'd be confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and
>> strategize at the same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are
>> necessary and the few more that lend atmosphere.
>> 6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
>> Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
>> Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
>> 7: hit against corner sound.
>> Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be
>> put in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge
>> of the screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just
>> have them stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
>> 8: description of moves.
>> Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list
>> is just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think
>> we should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment
>> which is description of characters which I also think should be in the
>> docs.
>> As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
>> themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as
>> long as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of
>> stage description could be on the screen because it would have to sound
>> natural, and any description that I can come up with at least sounds
>> pretty dull in a short form. lol
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
> Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
> hands down any day of the week."
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Clement Chou
2012-02-08 12:09:26 UTC
Permalink
True that. And that'd be an interesting idea... if there was someone around
honestly willing to try out the designs I would have no problem working on
this with them. I mention slowing it down though because you would have to
hear the sound and react accordingly... in typical fighting games, I have to
react instantly. I can't wait for the sound of a shoryuken and then block...
the input frames don't allow that in a game. What you're suggesting, is the
sound playing, and the player having the appropriate time to block which
would logically be about a half second, and that to me would be a detrament
to the game's pace, because then all a player would probably do out of
caution is wait for the player to attack, thus never going on the offense.
As to having differently positioned attack sounds, the only thing you would
need to know is that it was a jumping kick. As you said, fighting is not an
exact science, and one doesn't need to hear just how deep the kick is...
that's a visual aspect of it which isn't necessary if developing a purely
audio fighter, since the only reason that it happens to be possible is
because the sprights are there to have that measured. In an audio fighter
though it really wouldn't matter, but a good sound for low attacks would be
workable, since that would be the only sound you would need to block low.
You said that you can't instantly react to a move in a video game if you
aren't sighted... this may be true, however, you couldn't do that in an
audio game either unless you had enough delay between the sounds of the
attack coming out and attack landing. But this would be a problem of its own
considering that one has to time combos properly. I'm sure you know what a
combo is, but I'll define it anyway for those who are watching this
discussion from the sidelines as it's a critical piece of information in
fighting games.
A combo is, basically, a string of hits. However, it's a string of hits
during which the opponent cannot react in any way after the first hit. A god
example is Ryu's jumping roundhouse kick, followed by his crouching fierce
punch, his fierce shoryuken canceled into his shinkuhadouken in SF 4. That
is the example because, as stated, after the opponent cannot block or
counter after that jumping kick if it hits them.. However, if they block the
jumping kick, they leave the opponent with two options. One, they will drop
the combo to save time, which sometimes happens. Or, as I myself like to do,
they will finish it in what is called a block string, which takes away a
smaller amount of damage due to the block, but still left them unable to do
anything until the string was finished. That's also another problem in
developing a fighter, you have to make the combo system work and not just
program inputs to chain together, otherwise you will have tons and tons of
infinites, if you know what that is. I'm actually quite curious as to what
could be done about that, since I have no knowledge of programming. Games
with graphics use frames to determine the combos possibilities and
damage-scaling, but I'm not sure how that could be done purely on an audio
basis.
I see what you're getting at, but I think the problem is what you're trying
to do is convey information that just isn't there. In audio it doesn't
matter whether the kick is vertical or horrizontal or how much of an angle
it has. Whether it's high or low is the only thing of any consequence, and
although we want to convey as much information as possible that information
just isn't there to provide anyway. All that there is is there are two
characters with different movesets fighting it out. Character details can be
worked out, but there's no basis to work on whether one kick is a spinning
heel sweep or a hapkido flying side kick. That's really up to the player's
imagination here... that's all a description of the moves would do. And I
didn't mean complexity as in hard to understand... I meant complexity as too
many audio sounds to memorize is just what the blind community has right
now, no matter what information is given. I in theory as the programmer
could have six different sounds for six different variations of the same
kick. One for upward-hitting, one for jump-ins, one for sweeps, onr for a
diagonal doward dive kick and one standing forward roundhouse. But some
games already do that... and the reason a lot of blind people stay away from
mainstream games is not just memorization of menus, but the complexity that
comes with these games. Blind people don't want to work while playing a
game, and a fighting game that would be simple to you and me would have so
many sounds most blind people would say that it has too many sounds to be
accessible. At least, that's what I see on lists and forums dealing wth this
matter. I'm curious to see what other ideas are in your head though... you
have me intrigued and quite interested since again, I've never really sceen
a need for it... and while I find it unnecessary, it's nevertheless
interesting to have that discussion, because I see people who talk all the
time about having an audio version of mortal kombat, an audio version of a
fighting game... and all of it just irritates me because those people don't
come up with the reasons and ideas you do, they just say they want it,
because it'd be easier to play. The truth is, any fighting that is made
well, audio or video, will have the same information, hopefully, and thus be
just as complex...
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hi clemment.
>
> As I said, currently I just am not convinced you get enough information
> about what moves are happening. yes, you can learn them, but you couldn't
> instantly identify them.
>
> a vertical position sound would not be exact, but would at least let you
> know where a move was hitting, and thus give you a better idea what was
> going on.
>
> As for it being too complex, well I really don't see the problem there.
> you already have different hit soundds in streeetfighter for the use of
> light, medium, and heavy attacks, this would just be a question of using a
> similar system for attacks pointed at the head, abdoman, or legs of your
> character.
> Of course it wouldn't be an exact system, but fighting isn't an exact
> science, it would however let you know where to block.
>
> there would also bbe no need to slow it down either.
>
> As to positional audio, as I said from what I've noticed thus far the
> positional audio in the game is absolute, not relative.
>
> if you and the opponent are both on the left of the arena, you here both!
> sets of sounds to the left, not yours in the center and your opponents to
> the left relative to his/her position.
>
> My suggestions were made to give a blind player as much access to
> information during a match of a game they'd never played before as a
> sighted player, and were meant with that aime.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
> was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting
>> list... but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one
>> about projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already
>> do the position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they
>> should be extended, I think that the time between the launch of a
>> projectile and its connection to either the character or the character's
>> blocking is frankly enough to tell the distance between one character and
>> the other. As to your other comments...
>> 3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
>> position of a move.
>> This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would
>> be no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle
>> without being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds.
>> that would detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if
>> you were to add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them
>> for players to react in time, which would slow down the game at best,
>> since you would have to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not
>> what fighting games are about. Rather, fighting games are about
>> reactions, but more about quick reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and
>> with audio cues, I just can't see how it would be possible to keep that
>> fast, intense pace.
>> 4: Ducking sound/stand up .
>> Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
>> would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
>> idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't
>> hit crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the
>> only reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping
>> in towards them.
>> 5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
>> Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also
>> judge distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The
>> reason I mention all this is because I don't want too much audio
>> detail... it'd be confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and
>> strategize at the same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are
>> necessary and the few more that lend atmosphere.
>> 6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
>> Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
>> Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
>> 7: hit against corner sound.
>> Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be
>> put in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge
>> of the screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just
>> have them stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
>> 8: description of moves.
>> Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list
>> is just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think
>> we should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment
>> which is description of characters which I also think should be in the
>> docs.
>> As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
>> themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as
>> long as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of
>> stage description could be on the screen because it would have to sound
>> natural, and any description that I can come up with at least sounds
>> pretty dull in a short form. lol
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-10 02:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Clemment.

sorry, I did find this reply afterall, it was in a different part of my
laptop sinse my laptop desplays messages from the list in a wonkey order :D.

the average human reaction time is 0.16 seconds, so there is no need for an
audio fighting game to be any the slower at all. Yes, it would take practice
before a person was instantly able to identify a move and react, but there
would certainly be no need to slow the speed down by much, indeed as you
point out yourself during combos and the like a person would not be able to
react anyway.

as to my move identification idea, you missunderstand what I meant I think.
i wasn't suggesting some complex sound memorization system, merely a
different sound for where the move is targited to hit.

the sagat's kick example was one of a move that instead of hitting high up
at the head, hit mid range despite being a jumping kick. It doesn't matter
beyond flavour description (which could be in a movelist), what the move
actually is, it could involve sagat's leg turning into foam rubber for all
that matters.

the important information that needs to be got across to the player is where
the move hits them.

Yes, an audio fighter would be hard work to play, but that is the point of
all fighters, that you need to practice your reactions and stratogies, learn
what moves chain together and what do not, how best to react to your
opponent etc.

as to frame wrate, well that's just a measure of speed really, and no reason
at all it couldn't be in an audio fighter. I agree the design would have to
be amazingly good. you'd have to know a lot about the actual speed of
different moves, how people react, how different moves go together etc, so
it wouldn't be something a person could knock up in a day, but it could
deffinately be possible I think.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Clement Chou
2012-02-10 04:33:26 UTC
Permalink
You know what's sad... I have a story, character designs, movelists and
everything planned out in my head... but I can't work on it, because I have
no programming knowledge, and frankly just don't have the time to learn it.
Hmm. That's interesting, but that's the average reaction speed... it isn't
easy to react that fast constantly. As someone who tries to react on a
regular basis, it's difficult. Trust me... a guard impact parry in Soul
Calibur has to be timed just as the attack is about to hit you, and that's a
much shorter amount of time than 0.16 seconds.
Ah I see what you're saying. But you would need different sounds, which
would still require memorization. If I was to remake street fighter, I
wouldn't want every jump-in kick to sound like that if they were at that
angle... that sound would just get dull to hear. lol But this is why I think
an audio fighter would probably flop success-wise... noone would want to buy
it. Blind gamers are so used to simple games that something like this would
probably turn away so many people. I hear a lot of people saying they'd like
an audio version of MK, SF, whatever... which doesn't make sense to me as
they obviously know it's playable enough to have tried them and know about
them. What they don't realize is that it takes work to get good... and that
if they get this game and jump online, there's no way they'll survive if all
they do is mash buttons, which, let's face it, is what a lot of people do in
fighting games, sighted or blind. lol I'm still trying to figure out how one
would measure inputs and recovery times... frame rate is a unit of
measurement... but could you use something like an audio game? basic
example.
Ryu's jabs can combo one after another in SF 4. The reason for that is,
Ryu's jab has a 7-frame startup time, and anyone who gets hit by that has a
12-frame recovery, which allows ryu to do another jab before the player can
do anything. But part of how they measure frames is by animation... how
would one do that same kind of precise, tight timing with no basis to start
it off? That's how combos work in all fighting games, even games with chains
such as Tekken or MK. What I've described is the linking system of street
fighter, where you can't just mash a sequence with a generous timing and get
a combo... you have to time the button presses.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hi Clemment.
>
> sorry, I did find this reply afterall, it was in a different part of my
> laptop sinse my laptop desplays messages from the list in a wonkey order
> :D.
>
> the average human reaction time is 0.16 seconds, so there is no need for
> an audio fighting game to be any the slower at all. Yes, it would take
> practice before a person was instantly able to identify a move and react,
> but there would certainly be no need to slow the speed down by much,
> indeed as you point out yourself during combos and the like a person would
> not be able to react anyway.
>
> as to my move identification idea, you missunderstand what I meant I
> think. i wasn't suggesting some complex sound memorization system, merely
> a different sound for where the move is targited to hit.
>
> the sagat's kick example was one of a move that instead of hitting high up
> at the head, hit mid range despite being a jumping kick. It doesn't matter
> beyond flavour description (which could be in a movelist), what the move
> actually is, it could involve sagat's leg turning into foam rubber for all
> that matters.
>
> the important information that needs to be got across to the player is
> where the move hits them.
>
> Yes, an audio fighter would be hard work to play, but that is the point of
> all fighters, that you need to practice your reactions and stratogies,
> learn what moves chain together and what do not, how best to react to your
> opponent etc.
>
> as to frame wrate, well that's just a measure of speed really, and no
> reason at all it couldn't be in an audio fighter. I agree the design would
> have to be amazingly good. you'd have to know a lot about the actual speed
> of different moves, how people react, how different moves go together etc,
> so it wouldn't be something a person could knock up in a day, but it could
> deffinately be possible I think.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-10 05:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi clemment.

As regards sound interest, that is where voice acting would come in, sinse
though the combat sound for a move would dictate it's hit, the voice sample
for a given character playing above the move sound would make it different.

this is pretty much how move sounds now work in most games, it's just in
modern beat em ups there isn't really a set logic or codified system as to
what woosh sound dictates what. I in fact got the idea from street fighter 2
and 3, where a light, medium or heavy move would have an increasingly lower
pitched attack sound associated with it.

change this principle to attach to where you hit an opponent rather than
move strength and speed, and you have something that gives audio
information.

as to frame rate, it's just a numeric measure really in terms of beat em up
mechanics. Though it also relates to animation, there's really nothing
special about it as a number, and any numeric counter would do. Indeed
through looking at the screen there is in fact nothing to tell you the frame
rate, all you see is the move happening. Factors like that are worked out
later by advanced players and written in faqs, but they exist essentially in
the background code of the game.

of course, players would have to discover through experience what recovery,
chaining moves and the like actually were timing wise in audio, but that's
no different to a graphical game.

As to reaction time, well that is the average for humans listed according to
wikipedia. I suspect most people who play any sort of computer games will
have something faster, perhaps as low as 0.12 or 0.10, (certainly in Jim's
reaction game my personal results ranged betwene 0.11 and 0.09 on average),
i was just indicating that audio game sounds and picking up of information
doesn't have! to be slowed down.

As to complexity and people not liking it or wanting to play it because it's
too complex, while that's true to some extent it will only change when there
are! more complex games around that people can get used to.

the last thing we would want is a situation where developers were
deliberately keeping games simple and dumbing them down due to fears about
public reactions.

perilous hearts, lunimals, castaways, Entombed, and pretty much anything by
Gma are great examples of developers who've gone against the sterriotype and
done amazingly well doing so, ---- indeed swamp might well turn out to be in
the same mold too.

so, while an audio fighter would be complex, people could live with it.

The main problem with developing fighting games however, is that the
mechanics and structure need to be very carefully worked out to create
something that is flexible and highly playable, which takes great skill at
number, counter, and object manipulation in programming. while it probably
would be possible, you'd need a lot of knolidge to do it.

As to develiping design and story ideas, unfortunately that is the easy part
really, it's actually getting the skills to put them into practice that is
hard.


while getting the skills isn't necessarily easy, it probably is worth it,
especially now that we have tools like Bgt that offer an easier (though no
means easy), introduction into audio games programming along with some handy
tools.

I'll be starting on bgt myself when my phd is done, though I the mean time I
am looking around for other projects that I can! do with my current
skills, ---- for instance I'm currently writing an adventure for the Eamon
deluxe system, which can be done just within the dungeon designer.

while not precisely the epic rpg I've always wanted to create, people should
at the least enjoy it, and it is a chance to do something creative with game
writing until i can have enough free time to turn to seriously learning
programming.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> You know what's sad... I have a story, character designs, movelists and
> everything planned out in my head... but I can't work on it, because I
> have no programming knowledge, and frankly just don't have the time to
> learn it.
> Hmm. That's interesting, but that's the average reaction speed... it isn't
> easy to react that fast constantly. As someone who tries to react on a
> regular basis, it's difficult. Trust me... a guard impact parry in Soul
> Calibur has to be timed just as the attack is about to hit you, and that's
> a much shorter amount of time than 0.16 seconds.
> Ah I see what you're saying. But you would need different sounds, which
> would still require memorization. If I was to remake street fighter, I
> wouldn't want every jump-in kick to sound like that if they were at that
> angle... that sound would just get dull to hear. lol But this is why I
> think an audio fighter would probably flop success-wise... noone would
> want to buy it. Blind gamers are so used to simple games that something
> like this would probably turn away so many people. I hear a lot of people
> saying they'd like an audio version of MK, SF, whatever... which doesn't
> make sense to me as they obviously know it's playable enough to have tried
> them and know about them. What they don't realize is that it takes work to
> get good... and that if they get this game and jump online, there's no way
> they'll survive if all they do is mash buttons, which, let's face it, is
> what a lot of people do in fighting games, sighted or blind. lol I'm still
> trying to figure out how one would measure inputs and recovery times...
> frame rate is a unit of measurement... but could you use something like an
> audio game? basic example.
> Ryu's jabs can combo one after another in SF 4. The reason for that is,
> Ryu's jab has a 7-frame startup time, and anyone who gets hit by that has
> a 12-frame recovery, which allows ryu to do another jab before the player
> can do anything. But part of how they measure frames is by animation...
> how would one do that same kind of precise, tight timing with no basis to
> start it off? That's how combos work in all fighting games, even games
> with chains such as Tekken or MK. What I've described is the linking
> system of street fighter, where you can't just mash a sequence with a
> generous timing and get a combo... you have to time the button presses.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
> was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hi Clemment.
>>
>> sorry, I did find this reply afterall, it was in a different part of my
>> laptop sinse my laptop desplays messages from the list in a wonkey order
>> :D.
>>
>> the average human reaction time is 0.16 seconds, so there is no need for
>> an audio fighting game to be any the slower at all. Yes, it would take
>> practice before a person was instantly able to identify a move and react,
>> but there would certainly be no need to slow the speed down by much,
>> indeed as you point out yourself during combos and the like a person
>> would not be able to react anyway.
>>
>> as to my move identification idea, you missunderstand what I meant I
>> think. i wasn't suggesting some complex sound memorization system, merely
>> a different sound for where the move is targited to hit.
>>
>> the sagat's kick example was one of a move that instead of hitting high
>> up at the head, hit mid range despite being a jumping kick. It doesn't
>> matter beyond flavour description (which could be in a movelist), what
>> the move actually is, it could involve sagat's leg turning into foam
>> rubber for all that matters.
>>
>> the important information that needs to be got across to the player is
>> where the move hits them.
>>
>> Yes, an audio fighter would be hard work to play, but that is the point
>> of all fighters, that you need to practice your reactions and stratogies,
>> learn what moves chain together and what do not, how best to react to
>> your opponent etc.
>>
>> as to frame wrate, well that's just a measure of speed really, and no
>> reason at all it couldn't be in an audio fighter. I agree the design
>> would have to be amazingly good. you'd have to know a lot about the
>> actual speed of different moves, how people react, how different moves go
>> together etc, so it wouldn't be something a person could knock up in a
>> day, but it could deffinately be possible I think.
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 21:58:12 UTC
Permalink
I will agree there. Though I disagree about knowledge of the game itself...
the first day I picked up soul calibur five I brought it home, unpacked it,
and leapt right into story mode... and knew half the moves already. Why?
Because movelists float around the internet well before the game is released
because of different builds with the game and usually reflect the latest
build. As for it taking longer to reach a level of skill, the only thing
worth comparing here is memorization of options. And so long as you can jump
into a mode and play the first time you get a game, everything else can be
learned later. I can tell you for sure that I know at least half the
mechanics in the game Street fighter x tekken, and that game isn't coming
out for another month or so. And one thing that will make the games slightly
more accessible? The characters will be announced as you scroll through the
character selection screen. So in the memorization department I agree with
you. But as to skill at the actual game... one does not need to take longer
just because they're blind. I bought SC 5 the first day, had a few friends
come over, and beat them all despite them having read the command lists from
top to bottom.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Clemment.
>
> I am not saying you personally cannot play such games, or that sighted
> people do not use faqs.
> i am saying that the amount of time and trouble it takes a sighted user,
> from the day he/she gets the game out of the box to the point of acquiring
> a certain loevel of proficiency at that game will be less than the same
> amount of time and trouble taken by a blind user.
>
> this is an average, some sighted users may be worse, some blind users
> better, but it is a question of general mean average balanced out betwene
> the groups.
>
> for example, a blind user needs to memorize options, however quickly you
> can do this, it will not be as instant as the sighted user who can read
> them.
>
> A blind user canot read the special move names and descriptions, and thus
> with the absense of a faq has no idea what is going on in the game. A
> sighted user has all that information instantly available.
>
> this is why the games are inaccessible, and will remain so until the same
> amount of information and feedback is given within the game to a blind
> user as a sighted user.
>
> What you do with that information, how well you play, whether you look at
> faqs or whatever is irrelevant to that central point.
>
> Afterall, these games are not called "video games" because they play by
> sound.
>
> Bewre the grue!
> #dark.
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dan cook
2012-02-07 20:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Clement, you've just put into words something that's been on my mind for a while
spacial awareness is a verylarge factor in modern fighting games
especially now with the upgrades in sound.
another example is in mk, i try to go the whole fight without using
scorpion's spear as then it will help me get used to where the
characters are on the screen without me having to rely on a move that
brings them in close all the time.
that's also another use for beginner mode, as it can help you gage hit
distances based on where you are in relation to them.

i'm not sure how useful that was, and i'm certainly not claiming to be
a fighting game expert, far from it.
just giving my current experience.
now there's a use for mobility that I bet wasn't thought of by the
instructures. :D

On 2/7/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> Funny, because I find those combos quite easy to do. While I agree that the
> sound gives you less information that lets you keep track of your opponent,
> you have to do that in your head. If I start a match, I keep in mind exactly
> what movements I make and approximately how far I am from the opponent. I
> very rarely do jump-in cmbos, but one of my favorites which always works is
> with one of the SF 4 AE characters, Yun. It's a jumping dive kick, which if
> not blocked is followed up with two crouching light kicks, a crouching jab,
> a standing medium punch followed by a lunge punch. It always works, and it's
> because I can adequately orientate myself and keep my mind focussed on where
> I am on the screen. Once I've done that, move properties become
> second-nature. You learn not to combo unless you're sure that's going to
> hit, and if I'm going to do a combo, I can miss the first punch, but sighted
> people do that as well... it's no loss, as long as I don't continue the
> combo or try to. I know many people who would keep going with the sequence,
> which just gives me time to attack them from a distance. A lot of blind
> people tend to do that, and I think that's the solution to what your problem
> seems to be... if you miss the first punch, be smart about it and block.
> Wait til you're sure you can hit an opponent. This is where your mobility
> skills can come in handy, since although you aren't walking yourself, you
> can use that and calculate what movement options both characters are making.
> Hear your opponent trying to jump in at you, maybe start a combo? Uppercut
> them out of the air. If you're opponent is dashing in towards you, use a
> throw and get yourself out of that corner or you're dead. These are basic
> concepts that sighted people use all the time, and while there is more
> information to be had if you're sighted, that information is needless... I
> can figure that out all in my head. If I watch an SSF 4 match online from
> youtube, I can commentate what is going on, almost perfectly because I know
> what they're doing based on what I hear. That's how detailed modern fighting
> games are.
> As to audio games... yes, the sounds are very clear. However, as I keep
> saying, they're almost too clear. And most audo games have very few ins and
> outs to learn... which is the problem. Most of them are so simple, and
> there's nothing to figure out on your own because the game explains
> everything to you. Take something like judgement day. In modern mainstream
> scrolling shooters like time crisis 4, 1942 Joint Strike, the enemy
> properties are not explained... and the way one tells is by harsh experience
> based on how the enemy looks. The same should be the case... the fact that
> helicopters take more hits should be left for the player to find out as a
> mainstream game would do it. Or, when the game is released, that is what an
> Faq would be good for, and that's precisely why there are no walkthroughs
> for most audio games.. because they're so simple that one really doesn't
> need one.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Hi Clemment.
>>
>> I'm afraid having played fighting games visually, and also (after I'd
>> heard about beat em ups sound access), turning off the monitor and trying
>> them without I disagree on a sighted person learning move properties being
>>
>> identical to a blind person learning it's sound.
>>
>> When playing street fighter two, one combo I tried to learn was ryu's
>> punch in the air, punch on the ground, jab dragon.
>>
>> It would be pretty obvious to me if I'd got the timing for the first punch
>>
>> wrong, sinse I'd see! that the opponent was too far away or too close. I'd
>>
>> be able to adjust my timing the next time I tried the combo, punch
>> slightly earlier or later.
>>
>> This is because as you've said yourself, fighting games are not simply
>> boppit style sequences of pressing buttons in a streight out rythm, but
>> pressing buttons in accordance with the relative position of the two
>> opponents on screen and what is happening with the engine, and it is
>> easier access to that positional data, as well as knowing fairly instantly
>>
>> by looking what a move is supposed to do that makes the difference.
>>
>> yes, a sighted person still needs to practice when! a given move should be
>>
>> used, however this practice is made far easier by the fact that they have
>> far more information to work with about the move itself when used, the
>> relative positions of the characters etc.
>>
>> This is where audio games differ from mainstream games. in an audio game,
>> all! in game information is presented only in an audio, and therefore
>> accessible medium. You stil have to work to play the game, learn it's ins
>> and outs etc, however all the information you need is there! in the game,
>> the rest is practice.
>>
>> This is where mainstream games are lacking, sinse the information needed
>> to play them is essentially visual in nature, and though sound can provide
>>
>> a guide to that information, it is at most a guide only, and not a true
>> representation of that information.
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Trouble
2012-02-06 22:07:54 UTC
Permalink
After reading that info. I can only say that if you have to go
through that much or more memorizing key patterns for each game or
player. When does it become fun with that much of a learning curve?
I don't mind reading a manual for a game. But when most of the feed
back you get is a sound or nothing is not my thrill to games.
i can grab those sounds and program them to play on my computer. Now
to someone just listening. it would sound like game play, but its just sounds.

At 04:25 PM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>Hi clemment.
>
>Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, ----
>remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing.
>
>On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when
>your used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your
>used to them is quite telling"
>
>A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could
>instantly go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have
>access to the game, where as that is not true for someone doing it
>first time via audio.
>
>though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as
>you get used to such things like anything else, it's not true that
>it ever utterly disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend
>on it and upon other games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't
>itself far more than a sighted player.
>
>afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you
>still! will need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists,
>and may well have to have the faq with you while playing, where as a
>sighted player can just use the movelist option in game on the pause
>menue, ---- then of course there is the sound memorization angle,
>sinse a sighted player can instantly see what a given move is.
>however good you are at learning the moves by sound (and I don't
>dispute the fact that you can! become good), you still cannot have
>that easy access, and could not unless capcom introduced some sort
>of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and give you their
>sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a move was
>without initial memorization.
>
>As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself
>actually, sinse however we were talking about accessibility
>differences betwene disabled and none disabled people, it would seem
>that the menue memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into
>the same catagory, sinse the relevant information that you have to
>work around acquiring is not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't
>matter what sort of eyesight a person had, sinse it's the capacity
>to understand Japanese here, rather than the capacity to read
>printed menues and understand images displayed only graphically that
>makes the difference in effort.
>
>so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano
>debuken, we would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than
>"inaccessible to disabled people" which is a very different use of
>the term indeed.
>
>Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that
>where as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough
>japanese to understand the menues in the game, there is no possible
>world in which a person who is biologically unable to read printed
>menues and must use memorization can expend enough effort to get around this.
>
>You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and
>apply that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn
>japanese and apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken.
>
>Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for
>reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless
>experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your
>learning of Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience
>of the game as a japanese speaker would have.
>
>Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not
>good situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort
>to play both could be equalized, however where as that might be
>possible with bockerano debuken if more of the game could be
>translated, ---- that probably won't be with mainstream games.
>
>Beware the grue!
>
>dark.
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
>To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is
>a Wii game for the blind!
>
>
>>So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible
>>because you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a
>>Japanese speaker. Also, the story line is completely absent for
>>someone who speaks any language other than Japanese. Yes, there is
>>an English patch, however it is just that, a patch... and does not
>>translate the game fully. Does this mean that is not accessible? I
>>don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that this is quite an
>>interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting game and
>>learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down
>>if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly,
>>what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be
>>reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially
>>Capcom. Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character
>>names announced as you scroll over the character selection screen,
>>so you know who you are picking instead of finding out who you picked.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
>>To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There
>>is a Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>>Hi Dan, fair enough.
>>>
>>>perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
>>>appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an effort.
>>>
>>>Beware the grue!
>>>
>>>dark.
>>>-----
>>>---
>>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>>---
>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
>---
>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Clement Chou
2012-02-06 22:13:31 UTC
Permalink
The truth is, audio games do the exact same thing... and there are way more
keys than in mainstream games. Key patterns are dependent on the character,
which is why most people choose one they like and stay with them. That is
why fighting games are probably the most competetive genre... because
they're one of the most fun, yet serious genres. And as blind people,
fighting games are mor or less 100% playable, since accessibility is not the
word to be used, apparently... most of playing that type of game is mental,
and strategy. Once you get that down, everything else is a cakewalk.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trouble" <trouble1 at columbus.rr.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> After reading that info. I can only say that if you have to go through
> that much or more memorizing key patterns for each game or player. When
> does it become fun with that much of a learning curve?
> I don't mind reading a manual for a game. But when most of the feed back
> you get is a sound or nothing is not my thrill to games.
> i can grab those sounds and program them to play on my computer. Now to
> someone just listening. it would sound like game play, but its just
> sounds.
>
> At 04:25 PM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>>Hi clemment.
>>
>>Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, ----
>>remember that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing.
>>
>>On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your
>>used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them
>>is quite telling"
>>
>>A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly
>>go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game,
>>where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio.
>>
>>though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get
>>used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly
>>disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other
>>games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a
>>sighted player.
>>
>>afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will
>>need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have
>>to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just
>>use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, ---- then of course
>>there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can
>>instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the
>>moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good),
>>you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom
>>introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and
>>give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a
>>move was without initial memorization.
>>
>>As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually,
>>sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene
>>disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue
>>memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory,
>>sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is
>>not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a
>>person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather
>>than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed
>>only graphically that makes the difference in effort.
>>
>>so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we
>>would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to
>>disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed.
>>
>>Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where
>>as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to
>>understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a
>>person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use
>>memorization can expend enough effort to get around this.
>>
>>You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply
>>that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and
>>apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken.
>>
>>Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for
>>reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless
>>experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of
>>Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a
>>japanese speaker would have.
>>
>>Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good
>>situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play
>>both could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with
>>bockerano debuken if more of the game could be translated, ---- that
>>probably won't be with mainstream games.
>>
>>Beware the grue!
>>
>>dark.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clement at gmail.com>
>>To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
>>game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>>So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
>>>you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
>>>Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
>>>language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it
>>>is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this
>>>mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel
>>>that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a
>>>fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to
>>>write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And
>>>lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be
>>>reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom.
>>>Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced
>>>as you scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you
>>>are picking instead of finding out who you picked.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
>>>To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>>>Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Dan, fair enough.
>>>>
>>>>perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
>>>>appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
>>>>effort.
>>>>
>>>>Beware the grue!
>>>>
>>>>dark.
>>>>-----
>>>>---
>>>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>>list,
>>>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>>---
>>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>list,
>>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>>---
>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>list,
>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Ben
2012-02-06 21:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Shame no one thought of that before lol.

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Clement Chou
Sent: 06 February 2012 21:04
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was, Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!

So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it is
just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this mean
that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel that
this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a fighting
game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to write them down
if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And lastly, what big
mainstream game developers has ever been known to be reasonable on the
accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom. Though, Street fighter
x tekken will have the character names announced as you scroll over the
character selection screen, so you know who you are picking instead of
finding out who you picked.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Hi Dan, fair enough.
>
> perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
> appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
> effort.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> dark.
> -----
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list, please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12
Trouble
2012-02-06 13:52:38 UTC
Permalink
See your playing games or think you are by hitting a random combo of
buttons on the joy pad. i did that once with a James Bond game. The
sounds where great, but only sound feed back to go by didn't give me
the thrill of the game or even feel like I was playing it.
One game that is accessible don't justify the purchase of a machine
that only makes noise. I can get that by highlighting all sounds and
letting winamp have fun.
As long as they are moving towards accessibility its something to
look forward to and possibly justify it.

At 05:51 AM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>I agree with Clement, and the others, which shouldn't surprise any of
>you that know me. :)
>All mainstream fighting games for example require is a rezilient attitude.
>What I mean is that like anything, there is a lot of trial and error
>involved, as you're not going to figure anything out all in one go.
>JUst keep trying and eventually you'll succeed.
>Heck i'm trying blazblue CT at the moment, boy that game's faster than
>any other mainstream game i've played and I've been playing them all
>my life.
>At the moment, i'm kind of struggling and only getting wins by turning
>the stick and pressing A b c or d, attempting to get used to moves.
>I'm sure it'll come eventually though, because just because something
>seems hard at first, doesn't mean its necessarily impossible.
>So Michael and others, take a capcom wii game for example, and start
>by fiddling around with it. eventually you'll get the hang of it.
>hope this made sense as i've sort of got to run now.
>
>On 2/6/12, BRYAN PETERSON <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net> wrote:
> > That's getting right to the point. Smile.
> >
> > On 2/6/12, Mich <michv at eastlink.ca> wrote:
> >> I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was
> >> verry
> >>
> >> good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I used to
> >> play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have hit
> >> the
> >>
> >> other person. from Mich.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
> >> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
> >>
> >>
> >>> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is
> >>> simply
> >>> that you never considered trying something new.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
> >>> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
> >>> mortal
> >>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
> >>> I've
> >>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight
> >>> but
> >>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
> >>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
> >>> they
> >>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
> >>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them
> >>>
> >>> a
> >>> try myself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --Original Message-----
> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
> >>> To: Gamers Discussion list
> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
> >>>
> >>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
> >>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do
> >>> any
> >>> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
> >>> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
> >>> develop
> >>> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
> >>>
> >>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
> >>> figure
> >>>>
> >>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
> >>>> listening.
> >>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
> >>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
> >>>> spoiled
> >>> with
> >>>>
> >>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
> >>>> that
> >>> are
> >>>>
> >>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
> >>>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
> >>>> exactly
> >>> is
> >>>>
> >>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
> >>>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
> >>>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
> >>>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
> >>>> are a different
> >>> thing,
> >>>>
> >>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
> >>>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
> >>>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
> >>>> a game
> >>> which
> >>>>
> >>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
> >>>> one
> >>> of
> >>>>
> >>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
> >>>> And
> >>> if
> >>>>
> >>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
> >>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
> >>>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
> >>>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
> >>>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
> >>>> enough, most
> >>> fighting
> >>>>
> >>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
> >>>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> >>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> >>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> >>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> >>> list,
> >>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> >>> list,
> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >>> -----
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> >>> list,
> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> No virus found in this message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> >>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> >>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> >>> list,
> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> >> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> >> list,
> >> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >>
> >
> > ---
> > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> > Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> > please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >
>
>---
>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Shadow Dragon
2012-02-07 01:55:05 UTC
Permalink
I certainly do not just hit random buttons and listen to random sounds. I
actually play the game. As has been said before, in messages, in recorded
gameplay, whatever, it's definitely possible. BTW there are sighted gamers
that play by hitting random buttons, just so you know, they're called button
mashers. And ironically in fighting games that tactic tends to work if you
set the difficulty pretty low or play a really fast character with
exploitable moves. However, if Dan Cook is the Dan I'm thinking of, I seem
to recall he was playing some of final fantasy XIII at one point, and
hitting random buttons would do little more in that game than have you
probably selecting random choices in the menues and not playing the game at
all. So if he managed to advance in the storyline he obviously learned how
to navigate, fight etc.

I say again, just because it doesn't have audiogame or blind in the title
doesn't mean it isn't playable or learnable. Preconceptions are I think what
get a lot of blind people in trouble, or lock them out of a lot of
activities that are possible but that they refuse to do because they can't
see how it would be done.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Trouble" <trouble1 at columbus.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 06:52 AM
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

> See your playing games or think you are by hitting a random combo of
> buttons on the joy pad. i did that once with a James Bond game. The sounds
> where great, but only sound feed back to go by didn't give me the thrill
> of the game or even feel like I was playing it.
> One game that is accessible don't justify the purchase of a machine that
> only makes noise. I can get that by highlighting all sounds and letting
> winamp have fun.
> As long as they are moving towards accessibility its something to look
> forward to and possibly justify it.
>
> At 05:51 AM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>>I agree with Clement, and the others, which shouldn't surprise any of
>>you that know me. :)
>>All mainstream fighting games for example require is a rezilient attitude.
>>What I mean is that like anything, there is a lot of trial and error
>>involved, as you're not going to figure anything out all in one go.
>>JUst keep trying and eventually you'll succeed.
>>Heck i'm trying blazblue CT at the moment, boy that game's faster than
>>any other mainstream game i've played and I've been playing them all
>>my life.
>>At the moment, i'm kind of struggling and only getting wins by turning
>>the stick and pressing A b c or d, attempting to get used to moves.
>>I'm sure it'll come eventually though, because just because something
>>seems hard at first, doesn't mean its necessarily impossible.
>>So Michael and others, take a capcom wii game for example, and start
>>by fiddling around with it. eventually you'll get the hang of it.
>>hope this made sense as i've sort of got to run now.
>>
>>On 2/6/12, BRYAN PETERSON <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net> wrote:
>> > That's getting right to the point. Smile.
>> >
>> > On 2/6/12, Mich <michv at eastlink.ca> wrote:
>> >> I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was
>> >> verry
>> >>
>> >> good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I
>> >> used to
>> >> play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have
>> >> hit
>> >> the
>> >>
>> >> other person. from Mich.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
>> >> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is
>> >>> simply
>> >>> that you never considered trying something new.
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org
>> >>> [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> >>> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
>> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
>> >>> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like
>> >>> mortal
>> >>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because
>> >>> I've
>> >>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my
>> >>> sight
>> >>> but
>> >>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is ,
>> >>> for
>> >>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you
>> >>> they
>> >>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with
>> >>> no
>> >>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>> >>> them
>> >>>
>> >>> a
>> >>> try myself.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --Original Message-----
>> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org
>> >>> [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>> >>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>> >>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>> >>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't
>> >>> do
>> >>> any
>> >>> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
>> >>> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
>> >>> develop
>> >>> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough
>> >>>> to
>> >>> figure
>> >>>>
>> >>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>> >>>> listening.
>> >>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>> >>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>> >>>> spoiled
>> >>> with
>> >>>>
>> >>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>> >>>> that
>> >>> are
>> >>>>
>> >>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them
>> >>>> off
>> >>>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>> >>>> exactly
>> >>> is
>> >>>>
>> >>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>> >>>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so
>> >>>> long
>> >>>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think
>> >>>> menus
>> >>>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game
>> >>>> menus
>> >>>> are a different
>> >>> thing,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
>> >>>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you
>> >>>> find
>> >>>> a game
>> >>> which
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
>> >>>> one
>> >>> of
>> >>>>
>> >>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
>> >>>> And
>> >>> if
>> >>>>
>> >>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>> >>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>> >>>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
>> >>>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at
>> >>>> all,
>> >>>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
>> >>>> enough, most
>> >>> fighting
>> >>>>
>> >>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>> >>>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> >>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> >>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> >>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of
>> >>>> the
>> >>> list,
>> >>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ---
>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>> >>> list,
>> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> >>> list,
>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >>> -----
>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>> >>> 02/05/12
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ---
>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>> >>> list,
>> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> >>> list,
>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----
>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>> >>> 02/05/12
>> >>>
>> >>> -----
>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>> >>> 02/05/12
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ---
>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> >>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> >>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> >>> list,
>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> >> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> >> list,
>> >> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >>
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> > Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> > list,
>> > please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>> >
>>
>>---
>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>list,
>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 19:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, gotta agree with Shadow Dragon here... button-mashing can only get you
so far. And if you play fighting games with human opponents, mashing is a
one-way ticket to losing against anyone who even knows slightly what they're
doing, blind or sighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shadow Dragon" <elementalultima at hotmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


>I certainly do not just hit random buttons and listen to random sounds. I
>actually play the game. As has been said before, in messages, in recorded
>gameplay, whatever, it's definitely possible. BTW there are sighted gamers
>that play by hitting random buttons, just so you know, they're called
>button mashers. And ironically in fighting games that tactic tends to work
>if you set the difficulty pretty low or play a really fast character with
>exploitable moves. However, if Dan Cook is the Dan I'm thinking of, I seem
>to recall he was playing some of final fantasy XIII at one point, and
>hitting random buttons would do little more in that game than have you
>probably selecting random choices in the menues and not playing the game at
>all. So if he managed to advance in the storyline he obviously learned how
>to navigate, fight etc.
>
> I say again, just because it doesn't have audiogame or blind in the title
> doesn't mean it isn't playable or learnable. Preconceptions are I think
> what get a lot of blind people in trouble, or lock them out of a lot of
> activities that are possible but that they refuse to do because they can't
> see how it would be done.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Trouble" <trouble1 at columbus.rr.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 06:52 AM
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>> See your playing games or think you are by hitting a random combo of
>> buttons on the joy pad. i did that once with a James Bond game. The
>> sounds where great, but only sound feed back to go by didn't give me the
>> thrill of the game or even feel like I was playing it.
>> One game that is accessible don't justify the purchase of a machine that
>> only makes noise. I can get that by highlighting all sounds and letting
>> winamp have fun.
>> As long as they are moving towards accessibility its something to look
>> forward to and possibly justify it.
>>
>> At 05:51 AM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>>>I agree with Clement, and the others, which shouldn't surprise any of
>>>you that know me. :)
>>>All mainstream fighting games for example require is a rezilient
>>>attitude.
>>>What I mean is that like anything, there is a lot of trial and error
>>>involved, as you're not going to figure anything out all in one go.
>>>JUst keep trying and eventually you'll succeed.
>>>Heck i'm trying blazblue CT at the moment, boy that game's faster than
>>>any other mainstream game i've played and I've been playing them all
>>>my life.
>>>At the moment, i'm kind of struggling and only getting wins by turning
>>>the stick and pressing A b c or d, attempting to get used to moves.
>>>I'm sure it'll come eventually though, because just because something
>>>seems hard at first, doesn't mean its necessarily impossible.
>>>So Michael and others, take a capcom wii game for example, and start
>>>by fiddling around with it. eventually you'll get the hang of it.
>>>hope this made sense as i've sort of got to run now.
>>>
>>>On 2/6/12, BRYAN PETERSON <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net> wrote:
>>> > That's getting right to the point. Smile.
>>> >
>>> > On 2/6/12, Mich <michv at eastlink.ca> wrote:
>>> >> I agree with this you do lern. even after I lost my sight I still was
>>> >> verry
>>> >>
>>> >> good at playing duck hunt and I also used to play mk as well and I
>>> >> used to
>>> >> play lew kang since he had a kick that you could hear when you have
>>> >> hit
>>> >> the
>>> >>
>>> >> other person. from Mich.
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Ben" <gameheadben at aol.co.uk>
>>> >> To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>> >> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 2:27 AM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> simply
>>> >>> that you never considered trying something new.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org
>>> >>> [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>>> >>> Behalf Of Paul Lemm
>>> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
>>> >>> To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games
>>> >>> like
>>> >>> mortal
>>> >>> combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> I've
>>> >>> never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my
>>> >>> sight
>>> >>> but
>>> >>> surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is ,
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of
>>> >>> you
>>> >>> they
>>> >>> are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others
>>> >>> with no
>>> >>> sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give
>>> >>> them
>>> >>>
>>> >>> a
>>> >>> try myself.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --Original Message-----
>>> >>> From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org
>>> >>> [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>>> >>> Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>>> >>> Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>>> >>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that
>>> >>> doesn't do
>>> >>> any
>>> >>> good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
>>> >>> Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to
>>> >>> develop
>>> >>> games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough
>>> >>>> to
>>> >>> figure
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and
>>> >>>> listening.
>>> >>>> Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
>>> >>>> mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
>>> >>>> spoiled
>>> >>> with
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
>>> >>>> that
>>> >>> are
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them
>>> >>>> off
>>> >>>> as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
>>> >>>> exactly
>>> >>> is
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
>>> >>>> willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so
>>> >>>> long
>>> >>>> and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think
>>> >>>> menus
>>> >>>> don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game
>>> >>>> menus
>>> >>>> are a different
>>> >>> thing,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from
>>> >>>> memory.
>>> >>>> Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you
>>> >>>> find
>>> >>>> a game
>>> >>> which
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at
>>> >>>> least
>>> >>>> one
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important
>>> >>>> ones.
>>> >>>> And
>>> >>> if
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
>>> >>>> assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
>>> >>>> why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the
>>> >>>> genre
>>> >>>> we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at
>>> >>>> all,
>>> >>>> figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
>>> >>>> enough, most
>>> >>> fighting
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> games have a similar main menu structure.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ---
>>> >>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>>> >>>> list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> >>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> >>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> >>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of
>>> >>>> the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ---
>>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> -----
>>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> >>> 02/05/12
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ---
>>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>> send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----
>>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> >>> 02/05/12
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -----
>>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date:
>>> >>> 02/05/12
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ---
>>> >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> >>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> >>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> list,
>>> >>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ---
>>> >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> >> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> >> list,
>>> >> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > ---
>>> > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> > Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> > list,
>>> > please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>> >
>>>
>>>---
>>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>list,
>>>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Trouble
2012-02-06 14:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Sorry you didn't think but you did bring up the topic.
So those that have this WII. The price is around $150 and it has 1
accessible game. Sounds high for just one game for the blind.
Don't think many of you will buy it, because you already gripe about
the prices of accessible games that are for the blind.
Looks like a double standard here with no ground to stand on.

At 02:27 AM 2/6/2012, you wrote:
>You learn. That's it. And I'm sorry to say this so bluntly, but it is simply
>that you never considered trying something new.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>Behalf Of Paul Lemm
>Sent: 05 February 2012 21:19
>To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm intrigued you say that you all play these main stream games like mortal
>combat etc but I can't see how that would work?maybe its just because I've
>never considered trying to play a main stream game since I lost my sight but
>surely with no sight you wouldn't know where the other person is , for
>instance if they jumped over you wouldn't even know which side of you they
>are anymore? Again sorry if I've miss understood but if others with no
>sight have managed these types of games with success then I may give them a
>try myself.
>
>
>--Original Message-----
>From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
>Behalf Of BRYAN PETERSON
>Sent: 05 February 2012 19:36
>To: Gamers Discussion list
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
>
>I'm with Clement. I play a lot of te old SNES Mortal Kombat games and
>they're perfectly playable without sighted help. Granted that doesn't do any
>good if you're not into fighting games but it still proves my point.
>Besides, whhat I want to know is how these people got permission to develop
>games for the Wii since that couldn't have come cheaply.
>
>On 2/5/12, Clement Chou <chou.clement at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lol at games not being accessible just because the menus are tough to
>figure
> >
> > out... all three of you are trying to make points and noone and listening.
> > Let me just step in for a moment and say that in Michael's defense,
> > mainstream games can be hard to get into, especially for people
> > spoiled
>with
> >
> > self-voicing menus. Michael, to be fair, you should give the games
> > that
>are
> >
> > indeed playable on the wii a chance, rather than just writing them off
> > as not playable simply because you can't go through menus. And what
> > exactly
>is
> >
> > wrong with memorization? It's attitudes like that, the lack of
> > willingness for change that has kept audio games in a rut for so long
> > and produced so many good but similar games. Personally, I think menus
> > don't need to be voiced, at least, main menus shouldn't. In game menus
> > are a different
>thing,
> >
> > but it should be good enough for people to read the documentation and
> > get the main menu into their heads, and then work based from memory.
> > Just my personal opinion though. One last note... Michael, if you find
> > a game
>which
> >
> > is playable, or try out a game given on this list, odds are at least
> > one
>of
> >
> > us might have knowledge of the menus or at least the important ones.
> > And
>if
> >
> > not, if the game sounds interesting, one of the people with sighted
> > assistance will get it, figure it out and post the results. This is
> > why I almost exclusively play fighting games... other than the genre
> > we can get into the most, I don't need any sighted assistance at all,
> > figuring out menus is something I can do on my own, since, funnily
> > enough, most
>fighting
> >
> > games have a similar main menu structure.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
> > list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>list,
> > please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
> >
>
>---
>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
>---
>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
>send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
>
>
>---
>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2012-02-06 16:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

And I might add the fact the sum you gave usually does not include
accessories like balancing boards, extra Wii-motes, etc as well as the
games themselves.

On 2/6/12, Trouble <trouble1 at columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> Sorry you didn't think but you did bring up the topic.
> So those that have this WII. The price is around $150 and it has 1
> accessible game. Sounds high for just one game for the blind.
> Don't think many of you will buy it, because you already gripe about
> the prices of accessible games that are for the blind.
> Looks like a double standard here with no ground to stand on.
>
Ben
2012-02-06 18:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Not unless you do the right thing and buy from uk dealers who are always
willing to do that lol

-----Original Message-----
From: gamers-bounces at audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 06 February 2012 16:25
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hi,

And I might add the fact the sum you gave usually does not include
accessories like balancing boards, extra Wii-motes, etc as well as the games
themselves.

On 2/6/12, Trouble <trouble1 at columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> Sorry you didn't think but you did bring up the topic.
> So those that have this WII. The price is around $150 and it has 1
> accessible game. Sounds high for just one game for the blind.
> Don't think many of you will buy it, because you already gripe about
> the prices of accessible games that are for the blind.
> Looks like a double standard here with no ground to stand on.
>

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12
Clement Chou
2012-02-07 06:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol
dark
2012-02-07 08:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Clement for that matter I agree.

Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't
equate to "don't do that thing"

To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a
route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that
sense it is not "aaccessible"

Does that mean you shouldn't do it? ---- hell no!

It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life easier,
putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio announcements etc.
If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, ---- well you'll live
without them, just with a lot more trouble.

That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clemet at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this
> discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But
> would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more
> blind people into mainstream games? lol
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Yohandy
2012-02-07 14:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Dark,
I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both
sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive use
of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you don't
need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this does is
make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is a shame,
as your posts are always very informative.



----------
Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way
I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to
sign up:
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1


----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Clement for that matter I agree.
>
> Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do doesn't
> equate to "don't do that thing"
>
> To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a
> route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that
> sense it is not "aaccessible"
>
> Does that mean you shouldn't do it? ---- hell no!
>
> It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life
> easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio
> announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, ----
> well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble.
>
> That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful concept.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clemet at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with this
>> discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about. But
>> would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get more
>> blind people into mainstream games? lol
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 14:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate.
For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because
several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano.

I would want to answer something like

"that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting
is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game ---- etc"

See my point?

There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to the
verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only one I
have is the exclamation mark.

i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it this
way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I can't
unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, ---- much less
one which would be compatible with screen readers.

Beware the grue!

(who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely
Gruelling!).

Dark.

I
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Dark,
> I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both
> sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive
> use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you
> don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this
> does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which is
> a shame, as your posts are always very informative.
>
>
>
> ----------
> Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way
> I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to
> sign up:
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Clement for that matter I agree.
>>
>> Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do
>> doesn't equate to "don't do that thing"
>>
>> To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a
>> route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in that
>> sense it is not "aaccessible"
>>
>> Does that mean you shouldn't do it? ---- hell no!
>>
>> It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life
>> easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio
>> announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, ----
>> well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble.
>>
>> That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful
>> concept.
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clemet at gmail.com>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>> Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with
>>> this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about.
>>> But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get
>>> more blind people into mainstream games? lol
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Yohandy
2012-02-07 17:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Dark,
It's still very annoying. at least I find it so. When you read a book, you
don't see the author getting their point across by putting tons of
exclamations all over the place do you? I've never seen anyone do that so
excessively. as to your Super Liam example. putting that exclamation point
there isn't necessary. I think as intelligent human beings we can arrive at
these conclusions without such emphasis on specific words. they only serve
to irritate the reader, and probably cause people to take you less
seriously. feels like you're trying to shove your ideals down our throats
hahaha.





----------
Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way
I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to
sign up:
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1


----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate.
> For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because
> several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano.
>
> I would want to answer something like
>
> "that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting
> is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game ---- etc"
>
> See my point?
>
> There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to
> the verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only
> one I have is the exclamation mark.
>
> i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it
> this way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I
> can't unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, ---- much
> less one which would be compatible with screen readers.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> (who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely
> Gruelling!).
>
> Dark.
>
> I
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85 at gmail.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Dark,
>> I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both
>> sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive
>> use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying. you
>> don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all this
>> does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it. Which
>> is a shame, as your posts are always very informative.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way
>> I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to
>> sign up:
>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>> Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> Clement for that matter I agree.
>>>
>>> Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do
>>> doesn't equate to "don't do that thing"
>>>
>>> To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning a
>>> route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in
>>> that sense it is not "aaccessible"
>>>
>>> Does that mean you shouldn't do it? ---- hell no!
>>>
>>> It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life
>>> easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio
>>> announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, ----
>>> well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble.
>>>
>>> That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful
>>> concept.
>>>
>>> Beware the grue!
>>>
>>> Dark.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clemet at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>>> Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with
>>>> this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought about.
>>>> But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want to get
>>>> more blind people into mainstream games? lol
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2012-02-07 18:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Well Yohandi, such isn't my intention, and actually in a lot of philosophy
books and essays where the structure of your sentences can make a huge
difference to the quality of your argument, there are! indeed such markers
to show emphasis, even if it's not done in works of fiction as much.

so, while I'm sorry it annoys you, I'm afraid unless you can think of a way
for me to more reasonably show verbal emphasis, I will carry on writing as I
have been.

all the best,

dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!


> Dark,
> It's still very annoying. at least I find it so. When you read a book, you
> don't see the author getting their point across by putting tons of
> exclamations all over the place do you? I've never seen anyone do that so
> excessively. as to your Super Liam example. putting that exclamation point
> there isn't necessary. I think as intelligent human beings we can arrive
> at these conclusions without such emphasis on specific words. they only
> serve to irritate the reader, and probably cause people to take you less
> seriously. feels like you're trying to shove your ideals down our throats
> hahaha.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
> Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest way
> I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're planning to
> sign up:
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
> game for the blind!
>
>
>> Yohandi, I use exclamations to emphasize words, not to shout or irritate.
>> For instance suppose someone claimed that Superliam was a 3D game because
>> several levels take place on elivated locations such as a volcano.
>>
>> I would want to answer something like
>>
>> "that! is not how 3D works, it doesn't make a difference what the setting
>> is, it's to do with the dimentions of the game ---- etc"
>>
>> See my point?
>>
>> There really should be a method of emphasis in text which is similar to
>> the verbal emphasis i would use in making such a sentence, but the only
>> one I have is the exclamation mark.
>>
>> i always tend to try to write just as I would speak, hence why I use it
>> this way. Hope that makes sense, and while I'm sorry it irritates you, I
>> can't unfortunately think of another method of doing it in text, ----
>> much less one which would be compatible with screen readers.
>>
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> (who deffinately needs an exclamation mark just for being extremely
>> Gruelling!).
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>> I
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Yohandy" <yohandy85 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>> Wii game for the blind!
>>
>>
>>> Dark,
>>> I've been watching this discussion with interest, and I agree with both
>>> sides here. however I once again would like to point out your excessive
>>> use of exclamation points where they do not belong is quite annoying.
>>> you don't need to emphasize everything with an exclamation point. all
>>> this does is make me lose interest in your post and want to delete it.
>>> Which is a shame, as your posts are always very informative.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> Sign up to bing, and earn rewards simply by browsing the web. Easiest
>>> way I've found to get free stuff! Please use this link if you're
>>> planning to sign up:
>>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9778718&rrid=C714DC93-BC0B-4441-AD27-F345856231A1
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>>> Wii game for the blind!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Clement for that matter I agree.
>>>>
>>>> Just because a thing is not accessible and takes more effort to do
>>>> doesn't equate to "don't do that thing"
>>>>
>>>> To take a very simple example, walking around, mobility and , learning
>>>> a route is far more difficult than what a sighted person has to do. in
>>>> that sense it is not "aaccessible"
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean you shouldn't do it? ---- hell no!
>>>>
>>>> It does however mean that society should bloody well make your life
>>>> easier, putting in bleeping crossings, tactile pavements, audio
>>>> announcements etc. If tthese sorts of adaptations aren't! present, ----
>>>> well you'll live without them, just with a lot more trouble.
>>>>
>>>> That is in fact why "accessible" based on effort is such a useful
>>>> concept.
>>>>
>>>> Beware the grue!
>>>>
>>>> Dark.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clemet at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:15 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
>>>> Wii game for the blind!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the double post. Dark, I'm actually pretty fascinated with
>>>>> this discussion... you're raising points that I've never thought
>>>>> about. But would you believe me if I said that this just makes me want
>>>>> to get more blind people into mainstream games? lol
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>>> list,
>>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>> list,
>>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>> list,
>>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>> list,
>> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 01:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Hey, All.
I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
'"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
is go to http://www.visio.org
and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
ryan chou
2012-02-05 01:38:08 UTC
Permalink
uh, no offense intended, but there are quite a number of accessible
wii games, wii sports, dragon ball Z budokai tenkaichi 3 and tatsunoko
VS capcom to list a few

On 2/4/12, michael barnes <cyco at samobile.net> wrote:
> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
> '"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
> >From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
> you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
Clement Chou
2012-02-05 01:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Can we have some details about what kind of game this actually is? Action?
Puzzle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael barnes" <cyco at samobile.net>
To: <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 5:20 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!


> Hey, All.
> I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call '"The
> Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
> is go to http://www.visio.org
> and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then you
> will see the link where you can order you a copy.
> I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
> and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
> list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 02:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Well, those games sound nice but they are not fully accessible for
someone who is totally blind.
I understand that you can play those games, but however I don't like
that I have to remember menus and have to have a sighted person to help
me play the games.
That is why I am into accessible games for the blind.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
michael barnes
2012-02-05 02:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Well it's a maze game that is fully accessible for the totally blind.
The game requires the player to use the balance board, and the story is
you are looking for treasure. You will face different kinds of challenges.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
BRYAN PETERSON
2012-02-05 02:54:07 UTC
Permalink
I'm with the others. There are a lot more interesting titles out there.

On 2/4/12, michael barnes <cyco at samobile.net> wrote:
> Well it's a maze game that is fully accessible for the totally blind.
> The game requires the player to use the balance board, and the story is
> you are looking for treasure. You will face different kinds of challenges.
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
>
michael barnes
2012-02-05 03:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Once again, some of you might have sighted assistance to read to you
all the menus and other game stuff.
But I don't have anyone around to help me with the games that I got for
my Wii, however if I didn't have to remember the menus then I would be
happy. Take some of the audio games for exsample, in Shades of doom
the menus talk so you know what you are on, and doing the game play you
know what is going on in the game.
With a game like Pokemon the menus and game play screen is not
accessible so you don't really know what is going on.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
Ron Kolesar
2012-02-05 04:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Hey Mike.
Get a hold of me.
Is this 100 percent blind friendly, or do we need sighted assitance?
The price is right but is it realy fully blind friendly?
Many Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: michael barnes
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 8:20 PM
To: gamers at audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!

Hey, All.
I just recieved my copy of the fully blind accessible Wii game call
'"The Explorer and the Mystery of the Diamond Scarab'
>From the way things look the game is free to get! All you have to do
is go to http://www.visio.org
and click on the link call knowledge expertise & innovation, and then
you will see the link where you can order you a copy.
I didn't pay for the game so I know it is free. You just put your name
and address and email and in about a week or two you should get your copy.

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.

Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states "that a service dog beats a cane
hands down any day of the week."
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...